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Avatar of TetsuoShima

im not convinced of Eric Schiller but what do i know....

Avatar of Inconnux
Marcus-101 wrote:

He expects you to know principles such as quick development, castle quickly, don't move you're queen etc. If you are rated 1500 FIDE/USCF you definately should know this.

Actually he doesn't, he states the basic opening principles at the beginning of the chapter as if it was new material for us to learn.  Then he proceeds to give test questions that are not even remotely appropriate for the level indicated.

Eric Schiller is a FM

http://www.chess.com/coach/fmericschiller

His books are often slammed by higher rated players, but IMO his target audience is your average player.  I have had mixed experience reading some of his books, some I have really enjoyed and others leave me shaking my head.  I believe he is the Fred Reinfeld for this generation.

Avatar of kikvors
Inconnux schreef:

but did any of these students get anything out of his lessons at this rating?  A prime example is his chapter on 'basic opening principles'.  This is a TERRIBLE chapter.  The 'test questions' are asking what moves to play 11, 12 and 13 moves into the game.  This is NOT basic opening principles and isn't even closely relevant to anyone at 1500.  Even FM Eric Schiller knows better and doesn't use such poor examples in his books. 

I don't know about his coaching in Germany, but I do know that in the Netherlands, he's worked as a trainer for chess club Apeldoorn for years, teaching kids of all levels. Although they had normal club members as trainers too, about once per month Yusupov would also train these kids. Definitely not only the super-talented as Dvoretsky did, but all kids at these clubs, and they've had good success, I think some IMs and a GM or so.

Anyway, let's look at some specific problems you mention. The first two exercises are about move 4 and 7, so you probably mean at least exercise 3 of chapter 3:

 

 

First, he calls the exercises for this chapter a "difficult test", already acknowledging himself that the exercises in this one are harder than in most of the book. Second, it's a *** problem, the hardest class worth 3 points. Third, in order to pass the chapter, you are only expected to get 15 out of 31 points, and it only takes a single pretty obvious move to earn 3 for this one.

So is this basic opening principles? Well, neither side has castled, so it's still the opening. But what are the basic opening principles as Yusupov defines them?

The first principle of opening play is rapid development of all the pieces.

The second principle of opening play is to struggle for the centre.

The third principle of opening play is to struggle against our opponent's ideas, in order to make his development more difficult and to provent him from achieving control over the centre.

So, does this exercise qualify? I think the point of the move is partly to be able to develop the rook usefully to the d-file, partly to make sure black can't castle without dropping material, and to boot white uses his centrally placed pawn to achieve all of it.

It's OK. It's just challenging, but that's not a bad way to learn. If you think hard about a problem, then even if you got it wrong, the explanation afterwards will make an impression.

I didn't know which exercises you referred to next, and this comment is too long already anyway.

Avatar of TetsuoShima

I personally havent read his books. Weird i thought he was IM

Avatar of Inconnux

Ex. 3-5 is move 13 and Ex 3-10 is move 12 at quick glance.  Ask yourself if the above example is relevant to a 1500 rated player.  Especially since the chapter is called 'BASIC OPENING PRINCIPLES'.   This question has nothing to do with BASIC OPENING PRINCIPLES.  More advanced opening principles? yes, but not when you just introduce the principles.  This is why I tell everyone that this series of books should be avoided until around 1800.  Personally I feel ripped off and wish I could return these books and have been recommending to everyone I know not to buy them.

Avatar of kikvors

A 1500 player should already know the basic opening principles. They're what you teach beginners.

I think it is relevant to a 1500 player who doesn't want to stay a 1500 player.

Avatar of kikvors

This reminds me that Yusupov wrote for 1500 in the German rating system (it's translated from Tigersprung auf 1500 DWZ, DWZ being german rating) Which is usually lower than FIDE, unlike USCF which is usually higher. So perhaps the level he meant is more like 1650 USCF.

Avatar of TetsuoShima
Inconnux wrote:

Ex. 3-5 is move 13 and Ex 3-10 is move 12 at quick glance.  Ask yourself if the above example is relevant to a 1500 rated player.  Especially since the chapter is called 'BASIC OPENING PRINCIPLES'.   This question has nothing to do with BASIC OPENING PRINCIPLES.  More advanced opening principles? yes, but not when you just introduce the principles.  This is why I tell everyone that this series of books should be avoided until around 1800.  Personally I feel ripped off and wish I could return these books and have been recommending to everyone I know not to buy them.

well considering its a morphy game, wich itself gives it much credit because morphy is simple and straight forward. Well im too tired now to think about it, but it doesnt look useless to me. Very interesting, i immediatly learned something because i wondered why e3 is not dangerous after castling.

But i dont have a clear head now, but on first sight i would say its pretty interesting, i think its a great book, but maybe i have too look more into it to judge the value. Maybe im incorrect you never know.

Avatar of Inconnux

Once again you are contradicting what is written in his book.  You state that they should know these principles, yet Yusupov introduces them as new material.  Then he goes on and gives tests questions that are deeper in the opening that a chapter on 'BASIC opening principles' indicates.  I can't think of one other author who would consider these examples suitable for this level.  If the players should already know 'basic opening principles' as you indicate, then perhaps he shouldn't have called the chapter BASIC OPENING PRINCIPLES.  

Avatar of TetsuoShima
Inconnux wrote:

Once again you are contradicting what is written in his book.  You state that they should know these principles, yet Yusupov introduces them as new material.  Then he goes on and gives tests questions that are deeper in the opening that a chapter on 'BASIC opening principles' indicates.  I can't think of one other author who would consider these examples suitable for this level.  If the players should already know 'basic opening principles' as you indicate, then perhaps he shouldn't have called the chapter BASIC OPENING PRINCIPLES.  

well its about openings principles, you can see that black has some pressure in the example and he shows in the moves before how he got that. Because of whites mistakes,well i have seen books by GMs that didnt seem to do what the title promised, from what i saw now on first sight yussopov seems to be pretty good. The only flaw is that it might be not such a common opening. Also you cant generalize that knight to g5 is generally bad but in that case i would say its a good teaching tool for 1500 players.

Well from first sight i think its a good book.

Avatar of kikvors

This is now my idea of the perfect book-based chess training course from beginner to master:

1. The chess-steps books, 1 - 5 to get to 1800-ish. Chess-steps.com gives step 5 as for "up to USCF 1900", step 6 as "up to USCF 2100". Step 6 is very similar to or slightly harder than Yusupov's orange books, I think.

2. Orange Yusupov books, then blue, then green to get to 2200-ish.

3. Grandmaster preparation books by Aagaard, and Dvoretsky's books

4. Then, opening books.

Combined, of course, with plenty serious, slow games against tough opponents and analysis of the games afterwards, and extra puzzle books of the same level if improvement is lagging.

Pity it's such slow and hard work :-)

Avatar of Bruch

Just ordered the first book "Build...Fundamentals".  I read a few sample chapters from the orange series and found them challenging, but quite educational.  I scored enough "points" in the pawns chapter to pass, so I think I'm ready for this book.  We'll find out in 5 to 12 business days when it arrives...

Any further tips for leveraging this book to its full potential? 

Avatar of kikvors

Basically, follow his instructions to the letter.

Set up the positions on a board. If you see the correct move don't just write it down and move on, but force yourself to find the variations and write them down as well. Play through all the examples and all the answers. If you don't find the answer after 5-10 minutes and want to give up, try for another five minutes while moving the pieces, looking for new ideas. If you found a chapter or problem especially hard, mark it and come back to it later, say when you've finished the book.

If at some point you find yourself using a computer for the exercises, it's better to stop studying chess and find another hobby :-)

It's better to do 30 minutes each day than 4 hours once a week.

Avatar of Bruch

Thanks Kikvors, this is helpful.

Avatar of TetsuoShima
Inconnux wrote:

I own the orange books and I have complained.  Simply put, his books are not designed for people of my rating.  Im sure he is a world class GM trainer, but this is far from my level and he seems to be less than adequate of a trainer for people rated my level.  If you are above 1800 Im sure that these books are excellent.  But these books are far beyond my level of 1500... even though thats how they are advertised.  Those who review his books are probably high level players themselves and seem to have forgotten what a 1500 lvl player needs.  I know that they have done nothing for me.


to be honest i agree, for me they were partly too hard too. But then again im probably not even 1500 rated in real life..

Avatar of TetsuoShima

i worked a little with the book at the begining it was really easy but then it all of a sudden got way too hard for me, either the book is for much better players or im just way too weak.

 

and i dont mean to hard in a way that when i look at the solution it was illuminating, but hard in a way that even when i look at the solution im not really sure.

Avatar of kikvors

Of course, just that the exercises are hard doesn't mean you're not learning anything.

I recommend the workbooks from Chess Steps if Yusupov is too hard. They start at beginner level, and step 5 or so is the level of Yusupov's orange books. They're cheap, too.

Avatar of Martin_Stahl

I have went through the first book and have started on the second. I'm not 100% following the recommendation to play through every variation, at least not on every example and test position. I kind of got a bit impatient with how long it was actually taking me to complete each chapter Undecided, though I had followed that process through the first half of the first book.

I usually spend about an hour to an hour and a half on each chapter and test combined.

I have found that a few of the chapters and tests are very hard, a few are easy and the majority are just about what I think I need at my rating (USCF 1452 currently) -- hard but not too hard to make it discouraging. So I think 1500 - 1600 USCF is probably a good level to gain benefit from most of the material.

There are some chapters that don't seem to really prepare you for the tests. I don't have my notebook right now so the weakest chapters, from my recollection, are the ones related to openings. For the most part, the material is pretty basic in those (openings, gambits) but the test positions I just couldn't seem to get a grasp on. I think I completely failed 3 or 4 of the chapters, barely passed a number of them and did good or better on the rest (based on the book's grading scale).

I have that all documented to go back over each section where I didn't score at least good. Though, I want to work on the second book so I'm going to mix it up some and do some new chapters and redo some of the first book.

Avatar of Ron-Weasley

Ok having read this and the other thread I found the better part of the course on some torrent sites. As my review I say its excellent material. It's on par with the convekta training software I'm using now, but in written form instead of interactive. Its quality instruction.  But being written instead of interactive it'll take 2 or 3 times longer to do the same amount of training than if you do interactive software trainers.

Avatar of Conflagration_Planet

Have they helped your rating over the last nine months?