Resolved: "Game drawn - insufficient material" explanation please

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shy1akaanh

I can understand that if both player only have the king, the game will result in a draw. However, when one player have an extra pawn and a queen, how can it be a draw? Here the game for reference, http://www.chess.com/livechess/game.html?id=98768592. Please explain. 

oc2004

This happens if the player with the Queen and pawn runs out of time.  It is a draw as the other player can't win with just the king, even is the other player timed out.

shy1akaanh

I had plenty of time left. If time run out, doesn't that mean that you automatically lose? I'm so confused. Is this an official rule or chess.com specific rule? 

eddysallin

player w/ king is not rewarded for playing against queeen.this in chess is an obvious resign. so when the player w/ the q. runs out of time, a draw....would you give the king player a win because he elected to run around board w. his king? ....how about a king -n. AGAINST queen...king-bishop against queen, if player w/ queen runs out of time is it still a draw ??

oc2004

If you had plenty of time left and had the queen, I don't know what happened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_chess

 

 See Timing

erik

it's very simple:

if you run out of time, but your opponent could not checkmate you, then instead of losing, you get a draw. 

conversely, 

if your opponent runs out of time, but you would not have been able to checkmate him, you get a draw instead of a win (because you could not have forced a win). 

the clock is there to enforce a games rules, not as a substitute for checkmate. if you can't checkmate, you can't win.

i understand that some people will disagree and have a different point of view, but then it is just a matter of having a different point of view. we take the point of view that the USCF and FIDE (national and international governing chess organizations) take.  

erik

Law 6.9 of the FIDE Laws of Chess states that: "If a player does not complete the prescribed number of moves in the allotted time, the game is lost by the player. However, the game is drawn, if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player's king by any possible series of legal moves, even with the most unskilled counterplay." For example, a player who runs out of time with a king and queen versus a sole king does not lose the game. It is still possible to lose on time in positions where mate is extremely unlikely but not theoretically impossible, as with king and bishop versus king and knight.

Conflagration_Planet
Erik wrote:

it's very simple:

if you run out of time, but your opponent could not checkmate you, then instead of losing, you get a draw. 

conversely, 

if your opponent runs out of time, but you would not have been able to checkmate him, you get a draw instead of a win (because you could not have forced a win). 

the clock is there to enforce a games rules, not as a substitute for checkmate. if you can't checkmate, you can't win.

i understand that some people will disagree and have a different point of view, but then it is just a matter of having a different point of view. we take the point of view that the USCF and FIDE (national and international governing chess organizations) take.  


 Commen sense should tell you that's the way it would logically be.

shy1akaanh

thanks for the info. guess i might over look the time.                     

thepitbull

To me, none of the explanations satisfies me in understanding why white was not awarded a win, assuming that white had more time in the game in question.  I understand it if white had less time, but I don't see how the game is a draw if white had more time than black in this game.  Black has no chance to win the game, and white had all the chances, including time, to win.

omnipaul

But white didn't have time.  You notice that the final move made in the game was by black.  That means time ran out during white's turn.  So white didn't have enough time to win and black didn't have enough material to win.  Since neither player could win, a draw is the logical result.

Now, since you claim that you had plenty of time, here's my guess as to what happened.  You suffered from lag during the last bit of the game and, because of that, either the server didn't get your last move or you never received black's final move.  It may have appeared that you had enough time on your computer, but it is the time at the server that matters.

erik
I'm not sure what your talking about, TheMouse.
thepitbull
omnipaul wrote:

But white didn't have time.  You notice that the final move made in the game was by black.  That means time ran out during white's turn.  So white didn't have enough time to win and black didn't have enough material to win.  Since neither player could win, a draw is the logical result.

Now, since you claim that you had plenty of time, here's my guess as to what happened.  You suffered from lag during the last bit of the game and, because of that, either the server didn't get your last move or you never received black's final move.  It may have appeared that you had enough time on your computer, but it is the time at the server that matters.


 Your guess clarifies it for me as to what had happened. THX.

erik

got it. those are FIDEs rules for over-the-board tournament play. but since there is no live TD to make a determination online, we had to go with the most likely scenario. 99% of the time if your opponent has K+N he will not be able to checkmate you. so instead of giving a win for the extremely rare scenario, we call it insufficient material (as do most other major chess servers).

oc2004
erik wrote:

got it. those are FIDEs rules for over-the-board tournament play. but since there is no live TD to make a determination online, we had to go with the most likely scenario. 99% of the time if your opponent has K+N he will not be able to checkmate you. so instead of giving a win for the extremely rare scenario, we call it insufficient material (as do most other major chess servers).


  Nice to know.  If I'm ever in this position as white I should just let the clock run out and grab a draw...

odogburns46

this happened to me too when i had a rook and pawn vs. king. weird they should fix it.

TheGrobe
oc2004 wrote:
erik wrote:

got it. those are FIDEs rules for over-the-board tournament play. but since there is no live TD to make a determination online, we had to go with the most likely scenario. 99% of the time if your opponent has K+N he will not be able to checkmate you. so instead of giving a win for the extremely rare scenario, we call it insufficient material (as do most other major chess servers).


  Nice to know.  If I'm ever in this position as white I should just let the clock run out and grab a draw...


This would not be a draw -- only versus a lone king is K+N a draw. 

TheGrobe
odogburns46 wrote:

this happened to me too when i had a rook and pawn vs. king. weird they should fix it.


You mean fix it so that you get a loss instead of the draw for timing out?

ekorbdal

In an ideal world if a player only has a king left and his opponent can theoretically win, then the former should resign even though he doesn't have to. Having a queen and pawn is enough material to mate, but if time is against you then if you draw, you draw. The loan king thus plays for a draw if you like and its opponent's foe becomes the clock. It's sort of poetical if you want to see it that way.... 

Crudus
shy1akaanh wrote:

I had plenty of time left. If time run out, doesn't that mean that you automatically lose? I'm so confused. Is this an official rule or chess.com specific rule? 


The actual rule is once you run out of time your opponent makes your moves for you. If you opponent can in no way put you into checkmate it is considered a draw.

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