How come this is a draw ?

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Franky2929

This game was automatically drawn by the server because of insufficient material when there still was a pawn on the board ! Ok, the pawn was going to be taken 2 or 3 moves later but the server doesn't know that ! If the pawn was able to promote, the guy with the pawn would have a draw instead of a win ! Can someone explain or fix this problem ?

NewArdweaden

It sure is strange. It says Game drawn - insufficient material but black can still win if white wants to let him win.

VIPchesschamp

You can't win and it calculates that neither can your oponent. pawn promote kinight takes tie

NewArdweaden

Of course his opponent can win:



NewArdweaden
Metaknight251 wrote:

We really do need a sticky on this topic.  What happened is black ran out of time but white lacks the necessary material to mate him.  So the game is drawn. 

Oh yes, this is possible.

Franky2929

I remember that we were both very low on time and I didn't look at this but I'm almost positive that we had enough time to draw this on the board.

But you got a point and I can't say there is a problem if I'm not absolutely sure of what happened ...

Thanks

ponz111

Only Black has a chance to win the game as only Black has mating material.

Many players who would have Black in this position would try to win on time and not queen the pawn where it can be taken. 

agios

Theoreticly , the both have material to win ... Ng3,Kh3 for white and Kh1,Bg1 for black is a checkmate for white (of course with the worse playing in the world ;))

ajttja

or this could happen...



jaaas

Agios and Attja are right. This should definitely not have been adjudicated as a draw. The FIDE Laws of Chess state clearly:

 

"6.9

Except where one of the Articles: 5.1.a, 5.1.b, 5.2.a, 5.2.b, 5.2.c applies, if a player does not complete the prescribed number of moves in the allotted time, the game is lost by the player. However, the game is drawn, if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player’s king by any possible series of legal moves."

 

If the pawn had been promoted to a queen, and then black had run out of time, it would have been a draw, as white could not have checkmated black by any means then.

But if the pawn had been underpromoted or not promoted at all (as in the last position of the game discussed), checkmate is still potentially possible for both sides, thus whoever had run out of time should lose the game.

     
ponz111

Consider this position. It is White to move with 1/2 second on his clock.

Black has 30 seconds on his clock.  Where should White move?

ponz111

White has to play Qxg4+ to secure the draw.  Any other move such as Qd5+ would probably lose for White as after Qd5+ Black moves his king and then White runs out of time and then Black wins because Black has sufficient material to mate [the pawn could become a queen] and White loses as White has run out of time.

jaaas

Qxg4. Without the pawn, Black has lost mating material, and the game will be drawn when White runs out of time. If White ran out of time with the black pawn still on the board, Black would have (potential) mating material, and a win would have been awarded to Black.

Edit: you first bring up a question, and then beat folks to answer it? :P

Lagomorph

This has been discussed at length on this site.

 

FIDE and USCF rules are slightly different in this regard, as FIDE rules as written seem to support your argument, but USCF rules would not (no "helpmate can be taken into consideration")

Chess.com seems to work off the USCF rules. Have a look at this thread too http://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/game-drawn-without-logic

JMB2010
jaaas wrote:

Agios and Attja are right. This should definitely not have been adjudicated as a draw. The FIDE Laws of Chess state clearly:

 

"6.9

Except where one of the Articles: 5.1.a, 5.1.b, 5.2.a, 5.2.b, 5.2.c applies, if a player does not complete the prescribed number of moves in the allotted time, the game is lost by the player. However, the game is drawn, if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player’s king by any possible series of legal moves."

 

If the pawn had been promoted to a queen, and then black had run out of time, it would have been a draw, as white could not have checkmated black by any means then.

 

But if the pawn had been underpromoted or not promoted at all (as in the last position of the game discussed), checkmate is still potentially possible for both sides, thus whoever had run out of time should lose the game.

     


Those are the FIDE laws. I know the USCF laws are different, so we adjudicate positions like the one above as drawn when black runs out of time, even though technically black can underpromote and get mated. I can only guess that the chess.com laws are the same.

ponz111

I only played on another forum so considering everything I could be wrong as to the rules on this forum.

jaaas
Lagomorph wrote:

FIDE and USCF rules are slightly different in this regard, as FIDE rules as written seem to support your argument, but USCF rules would not (no "helpmate can be taken into consideration")

How is a helpmate to be sharply and precisely differentiated from "a most unfortunate sequence of blunders"? 

Apparently, there are some discrepancies indeed. Unfortunately, the complete USCF rulebook has not been made available online (as opposed to the FIDE one), but this resource seems to be fair enough:

http://www.uschess.org/content/view/11750/668/

The one in particular that concerns the issue at hand is covered by "Obscure difference #8".


"It is possible to lose on time in situations that are a draw under USCF rules. For instance, GM Nakamura lost on time with a king and rook vs. king and knight. Under the FIDE laws of chess, the game is drawn when one player runs out of time only if there is no legal sequence of moves by which the opponent could checkmate the player. Since there is a helpmate that allows a king and one knight to checkmate a player with a king and rook, GM Nakamura lost.

USCF rule 14E (insuffient material to win on time) specifies cases where the game is drawn even if one player runs out of time. One of the cases listed in rule 14E is the opponent having only a king and knight (and not having a forced win)."

 

The USCF rule denies the player with time left on the clock the benefit of doubt, instead jumping to conclusions and making assumptions that the flagged player would have played adequately (i.e. assuming him not possibly committing the mentioned "most unfortunate series of blunders") if the game were to be continued from the last position arrived at before his flag fell. The FIDE rule does not assume nor exclude anything, but just relies on what is possible.

 

PS Not related, but here some other USCF peculiarities:

"When castling, the player may touch either the king or the rook first."

"The USCF rules explicitly state that, when promoting a pawn, an upside-down rook is to be considered to be a queen."

Both unthinkable in official games in Europe. Still, it might be funny to see chess.com interpret "Rh1-f1" as "O-O", or have queens acquired by means of promotion displayed as upside-down rooks. :P

woton

Chess.com have combined two rules, USCF's "Insufficient material "(FIDE 6.9) and USCF's "Insufficient losing chances" (FIDE 10.2.a) into a single rule that they have labeled "Insufficient Material."  This was done because "Insufficient losing chances" requires adjudication before the flag falls, and Chess.com have no way to implement this provision.

The given position would be adjudicated a draw because White can prevent the pawn promotion.  Thus, Chess.com calls it a draw because of "Insufficient Material." 

It's a Chess.com rule, and because we are playing on Chess.com, we follow their rules.

TBentley

My guess is that chess.com's adjudication is not very smart, and simply says that if your opponent runs out of time, it's a draw if you have a lone king, a king and bishop, or a king and knight, otherwise, it's a win. I've wondered whether it would correctly mark this as a draw if white ran out of time:

TBentley

I just found http://www.chess.com/blog/webmaster/live-chess-gets-some-love: "Automatic draw on time-out if opponent has insufficient mating material: KB, KN or KNN"