It's a bit sad to start with 2 black queens in a diagram. In Dorogov's original version one black queen was promoted during the solution which is OK - but that puzzle was flawed. I made a correct version with a white bishop (instead of a queen) beating both black queens in some interesting variations: https://www.chess.com/forum/view/more-puzzles/beautiful-mate-26-2#comment-79824295
The puzzle IM Jovanka Houska "loves" most, white to play and white to win
Sort:
Mar 4, 2023
0
#3
@Arisktotle
the is the solution according to IM Jovanka (which I doubt it is correct, because black doesn't play the best moves):
I made the move g2, because it doesn't matter anymore at the end of this puzzle what black does. But I had to add a move to make this illustration better and anyone can see the checkmate for white. But I see black didn't play correctly. Can you now see what I mean?
Much appreciated.
Mar 4, 2023
0
#4
This puzzle gives me a little headache because it was presented in front of (I guess XY millions) viewers (at the 2mm $ grand final Magnus vs Hakamura). Therefore it is imho an important puzzle and imho, according to engines black isn't in a situation where black is faced with a forced checkmate for white.
If someone can show me a forced checkmate (while black plays the best moves), it is much appreciated because I doubt it will be the case.
jproch wrote:
@Arisktotle
the is the solution according to IM Jovanka (which I doubt it is correct, because black doesn't play the best moves):
I made the move g2, because it doesn't matter anymore at the end of this puzzle what black does. But I had to add a move to make this illustration better and anyone can see the checkmate for white. But I see black didn't play correctly. Can you now see what I mean?
Much appreciated.
Frankly, I don't get it. Black has an alternative: 3. ...Qh7+ but white easily wins as well. Note that this is an endgame study and not a checkmate problem. White need not show a forced win or checkmate quickly, just winning by material superiority is enough. That is true for all endgame studies.
Note that there are no best moves in endgame studies, there are only winning moves, drawing moves and losing moves. All black moves lose so he chooses one which is hard for white to counter!
Mar 4, 2023
0
#6
These are the best moves for black. It doesn't lead to a forced checkmate as IM Jovanka implied. I don't have any issues with her personally , but with the fact that she is demonstrating a puzzle which leads to a "strange" mate as show in #3.
Imho this puzzle is not good as a puzzle and imho it is not designed to show on TV with millions of viewers. This puzzle just leads imho to a forced endgame approx. 3.5 plus for white.
Mar 4, 2023
0
#7
Arisktotle wrote:
jproch wrote:
@Arisktotle
the is the solution according to IM Jovanka (which I doubt it is correct, because black doesn't play the best moves):
I made the move g2, because it doesn't matter anymore at the end of this puzzle what black does. But I had to add a move to make this illustration better and anyone can see the checkmate for white. But I see black didn't play correctly. Can you now see what I mean?
Much appreciated.
Frankly, I don't get it. Black has an alternative: 3. ...Qh7+ but white easily wins as well. Note that this is an endgame study and not a checkmate problem. White need not show a forced win or checkmate quickly, just winning by material superiority is enough. That is true for all endgame studies.
Note that there are no best moves in endgame studies, there are only winning moves, drawing moves and losing moves. All black moves lose so he chooses one which is hard for white to counter!
please look at #6 where I show the best moves for black which leads to a forced endgame.
The questions is: Is this puzzle a "good" puzzle or is it misleading people to believe there is a forced checkmate as shown in TV?
Please reread the last paragraphs in my last post. There are no best moves in an endgame study, there are only challenging moves! Note that the end of your analysis is extremely easy to win on an expert level which is the standard for all endgame studies. If Yovanka said "forced win" it is because she and all strong players consider your end position as a "forced win". All the things you learned in game play or by StockFish analysis about the relative value of moves are absolutely wrong for solving endgame studies! You have a lot to learn!
Mar 4, 2023
0
#9
@Arisktotle Yes I have alot to learn, and I won't be able to learn what I want in this life anymore. We all know that.
Mar 4, 2023
0
#10
@Arisktotle IM Jovanka never wanted to go to an ENDGAME that is the issue. . . in case you have Youtube as well, what the moment where she is saying there shouldnt be an endgame
Mar 4, 2023
0
#11
IM Jovanka said the solution is as shown in #3. This is a contradiction IF black can force white to an endgame. --> imho this puzzle is therefore not solvable if someone seeks a one way answer. This is the whole point.
jproch wrote:
@Arisktotle IM Jovanka never wanted to go to an ENDGAME that is the issue. . . in case you have Youtube as well, what the moment where she is saying there shouldnt be an endgame
I've seen (part of) the video. Experts on a certain level understand that endgame studies (this is a real one) are build on themes. When both sides play the thematic moves you won't get into an endgame but only into a mate with 2 black queens on the board. But if black decides not to play ball you can get into any kind of a position, provided white wins. That is so completely obvious to Jovanka or anyone that she won't even mention it. It is something "everyone knows". Many endgame studies end in a nice checkmate but almost always black could have avoided it and chosen an ordinary longwinding road to his death instead. But people prefer to see the nice thematic mates over the boring endgames, so that's what they get. Remember, when all moves lose, there are no better and no worse moves.
Mar 4, 2023
0
#13
jproch wrote:
These are the best moves for black. It doesn't lead to a forced checkmate as IM Jovanka implied.
Yes it does. Black is lost in your final position (meaning White has a forced checkmate).
I don't have any issues with her personally , but with the fact that she is demonstrating a puzzle which leads to a "strange" mate as show in #3.
Imho this puzzle is not good as a puzzle and imho it is not designed to show on TV with millions of viewers. This puzzle just leads imho to a forced endgame approx. 3.5 plus for white.
SF has nothing to do with it. It's easy to find moves that force mate from your final position. It's the moves that count. e.g.
Mar 4, 2023
0
#14
This study is correct as Arisktotle explained. It's actually fairly common in endgame studies for the main variation to finish with White giving mate, while alternative black moves could drag out the play more, but they lose anyway. The latter moves, which engines prefer, produce less interesting side-variations. All of this stuff is covered in my blog, Understanding soundness and motivations in chess puzzles, problems, and studies.
The person in the YouTube video explained the study just fine. Earlier she indicated it's "White to play and win", meaning it's not a fastest mate problem. She mentioned the 3...Qf7 move as a side-variation that doesn't save Black, before returning to the main line where the white queen is sacrificed to enable mate – the point of the study. Here's a link to the video with the correct time-stamp (3:28:01) for the study part: https://www.youtube.com/live/UAz4pHzJqGY?feature=share&t=12481
Can someone solve it and/or prove that there is really a forced mate for white? I guess I am wrong, but while analyzing it isn't really clear for me if black plays it perfectly.
She is introducing the puzzle at time: 1:45:57 below. The solution (?) is at 3:37:50 of the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAz4pHzJqGY&t=1002s