Win, Draw, or Loss? You Decide :)

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Arisktotle
cobra91 wrote:

As is, however, it must surely be impossible to satisfy such stringent criteria with a queenless position. Remember, you'd need ALL 4 positions with a White queen in place of rook/bishop to be legal when e.p. is illegal but illegal when e.p. is legal, while the original position having both rooks and both bishops remains legal when e.p. is legal but illegal when e.p. is illegal. It's hard enough to make all of that work, while simultaneously ensuring that all positions will actually have the desired win/loss outcome, when you can trivially prove the occurrence of a queen promotion in the alternative positions. If there's no obvious queen promotion, the whole thing simply devolves into a topic exclusively for professionals.

I am a professional in this field and I wouldn't say it is impossible a priori though I admit it looks quite difficult. I wouldn't use the e.p. propery but the castling property. The justification for "losing" would have to look something like this:

With a queen replacing either of the four units involved one would need to prove that either (a) a black castling right exists that did not exist before, or (b) a white castling right no longer exists that did exist before. Second, the increase of black potential relative to white potential should be convertible to a black win in spite of the presence of the white queen. Most likely such a construction would involve "promotions disturbing castling rights" which is a well known device.

Even when it does not prove possible, it may still be achievable with just 2 rook substitutions or another reduced implementation. Still an interesting task.

Arisktotle

On the e.p. convention:

In a sense, this composition is "over the top". It shows positions where you can either prove absolutely that "white can capture e.p." or that "white cannot capture e.p." whatever the game history. Such requirements are sometimes made for purely retro-analytical problems with assignments like "prove that Be8 is promoted" or "what were the 3 last moves?".

Such requirements however never exist for problems with "forward playing" assignments like "white wins". Though solving certain problems requires a degree of retro-analysis, missing properties are filled in by "conventions" and need not be proved. The only use of retro-analysis is to establsh whether or not conditions exist that contradict the conventional assumptions. For instance, you may be able to prove absolutely that white cannot castle or can play e.p. while the conventions prefer the opposite assumptions. It is no use though to prove something absolutely that agrees with pre-existing conventions, like "white has no e.p. right". This is what I meant by "over the top".

In many common endgame and problem diagrams, it is possible to play e.p. somewhere on the board. We would lose tens of thousands of composition (and game puzzles) were we to require the composer to "prove" that e.p. is impossible. The current convention that e.p. is disallowed unless one can prove otherwise, is therefore the only way to go. So "the proof that white can win" does not imply "the proof that white can win in all game histories".

Arisktotle
cashcow8 wrote:

It looks like this may need retrograde analysis. How did black's pawn get to g5 and what was white's move before that? 

Well done! It is a good idea to work out for yourself whether or not this position can be reached legally. Best to use logical reasoning for that and not play a full proof game. Almost any position is legal unless you can find a reason why not - like captures, promotions and pawn structures.

The position with the bishop is pretty tricky to analyze after the e.p. move. Remellion used Stockfish for it.

It is easier with the queen on h5 though. Did you make the retro-analysis for that one?

cashcow8

 A queen on h5 instead of the bishop means it must have happened via a promotion. We worked out the bishop can't be because it would have to promote on g8 then wouldn't have been able to escape, but a queen could have escaped, and it's also possible that my last move was e2-e3 because the bishop on f1 was simply captured without moving.

All that makes it a lot harder to work out whether en-passant it now legal, plus the fact I have a queen gives white more ways to play.

 

Arisktotle
cashcow8 wrote:

All that makes it a lot harder to work out whether en-passant it now legal, plus the fact I have a queen gives white more ways to play. 

Considering the amount of work you already accomplished, the remaining issues are small game. You're almost there! 

cobra91
Arisktotle wrote:

In a sense, this composition is "over the top". It shows positions where you can either prove absolutely that "white can capture e.p." or that "white cannot capture e.p." whatever the game history [...]

Such requirements however never exist for problems with "forward playing" assignments like "white wins". Though solving certain problems requires a degree of retro-analysis, missing properties are filled in by "conventions" and need not be proved. The only use of retro-analysis is to establsh whether or not conditions exist that contradict the conventional assumptions [...] It is no use though to prove something absolutely that agrees with pre-existing conventions, like "white has no e.p. right". This is what I meant by "over the top".

I don't doubt at all whether any of this is true. I simply felt that, for the purposes of the specific construction task, relying on such technical conventions would be sort of a "cheap way out"... and more importantly, was likely an unnecessary crutch to lean on. I also think it's an especially nice benefit that, thanks to meeting "over the top" criteria, the puzzle is solvable even for those unfamiliar with the formal rules and standards of chess composition.

cobra91
Arisktotle wrote:
cobra91 wrote:

As is, however, it must surely be impossible to satisfy such stringent criteria with a queenless position [...] It's hard enough to make all of that work [...] when you can trivially prove the occurrence of a queen promotion in the alternative positions. If there's no obvious queen promotion, the whole thing simply devolves into a topic exclusively for professionals.

I am a professional in this field and I wouldn't say it is impossible a priori though I admit it looks quite difficult. I wouldn't use the e.p. propery but the castling property. The justification for "losing" would have to look something like this:

[...]

Even when it does not prove possible, it may still be achievable with just 2 rook substitutions or another reduced implementation. Still an interesting task.

Well, I can't believe I'm actually attempting this, but... does the position below work? "White to move" needs to be specified/assumed, as otherwise there's no way to prove whose move it really is. And since I just threw this together in a couple of ~1-hour sessions (yesterday + today), and haven't thoroughly analyzed it yet, there could also be any number of utterly fatal flaws that I've somehow overlooked.

cobra91
cashcow8 wrote:

It looks like this may need retrograde analysis. How did black's pawn get to g5 and what was white's move before that?

Either it was a push from g6 in which case white's previous move can only have been e2-e3, in which case the white bishop on h5 must have got there by promotion and white still has 7 pawns.

However it can only have been the h-pawn and if that queened on g8, although it's a white square that bishop would never have got out of there.

Thus it is impossible for white to have only just played e2-e3.

The other options are therefore a capture on g5 or g7-g5. In the latter case, white can capture en-passant and his last move must have been bishop from g6 to h5.

With regards to a capture, white is missing just 2 knights and a pawn but the black pawn on b4 has in theory made 2 captures to get there so the pawn on g5 cannot have also made 2 captures which would be necessary.

Therefore, whilst i haven't worked out if the position can be legally reached, if it can it must have been via g7-g5 so en-passant is possible.

Thus said I would now have to analyse the existing position to see what difference that makes as to who can win.

 cashcow8 wrote:

 A queen on h5 instead of the bishop means it must have happened via a promotion. We worked out the bishop can't be because it would have to promote on g8 then wouldn't have been able to escape, but a queen could have escaped, and it's also possible that my last move was e2-e3 because the bishop on f1 was simply captured without moving.

All that makes it a lot harder to work out whether en-passant it now legal, plus the fact I have a queen gives white more ways to play.

If you have the time, please finish this. You've already covered most of the important details, and it's really great to see such thorough analysis in these forums for a change. Cool

Arisktotle
cobra91 wrote:

Well, I can't believe I'm actually attempting this, but... does the position below work? "White to move" needs to be specified/assumed, as otherwise there's no way to prove whose move it really is. And since I just threw this together in a couple of ~1-hour sessions (yesterday + today), and haven't thoroughly analyzed it yet, there could also be any number of utterly fatal flaws that I've somehow overlooked.

You clearly have a great talent for this kind of construction! I wouldn't have put this one together myself in an hour. I see the motivation in the various substitutions and they look good. I'll check it again tonight - it is so easy to overlook something nasty in retrograde positions.

You only use standard conventions for all problems and endgames: "white starts unless specified or proved differently" and "all castlings are possible unless proved otherwise". Millions of problems could be thrown in the trashcan if these conventions didn't hold.

By the way, there is nothing wrong with your original construction. Only by setting yourself the high standard to prove "everything" you may have made the construction "heavier" than necessary and blocked out the more challenging option without a white queen. It's always handy to apply the tools of the trade for maximizing results.

And of course, you have to read the instructions for your assignment in detail. Expressed demands always take precedence over standard conventions - even over chess rules.

I'm curious about the final result (assuming you wish to refine it). Please, let me know!

Remellion

@cobra91: As you feared, a flaw in your new position. Replacing wBa6 -> wQa6: I claim black's captures were axb6, and gxfxe which was then captured by white's f-pawn on its way left, so white's O-O rights have never been disturbed.

As an aside, I don't like giving full analysis unless pressed; it takes a long time to type out. It used to be great for practising and checking the logic, but now I'm much more at ease with the logic that it's less useful than tedious.

Arisktotle
Remellion wrote:

@cobra91: As you feared, a flaw in your new position. Replacing wBa6 -> wQa6: I claim black's captures were axb6, and gxfxe which was then captured by white's f-pawn on its way left, so white's O-O rights have never been disturbed.

As an aside, I don't like giving full analysis unless pressed; it takes a long time to type out. It used to be great for practising and checking the logic, but now I'm much more at ease with the logic that it's less useful than tedious.

Agree; was about to report that but you were quicker!

Arisktotle

Something like this might work. Quick fix, please check (so will I):

Edit: better to place e6 on e5 to prevent 1. 0-0 Qe5 threatening Qd4+

cobra91

^ White's light-square bishop could still have been captured (in position with queen on a8), unfortunately. Namely, on b5.

Fantastic catch by Remellion, and with tremendous speed... the mark of a true genius! Smile

Arisktotle
cobra91 wrote:

^ White's light-square bishop could still have been captured (in position with queen on a8), unfortunately. Namely, on b5.

Fantastic catch by Remellion, and with tremendous speed... the mark of a true genius! 

True! Needs a little more work but it looks like a resolvable issue.

Remellion

 Arisktotle's missing a wPc4 in that diagram.

In response to the new issue, maybe swap bPb7 and wPb5 (and move the wBa8 elsewhere)?

Arisktotle

A rather simple solution would be this one but the extra knight is not a very likable addition. But it is always sensible to first create a correct version and then improve on it:

 

Arisktotle
Remellion wrote:

 Arisktotle's missing a wPc4 in that diagram.

In response to the new issue, maybe swap bPb7 and wPb5 (and move the wBa8 elsewhere)?

I corrected it in the last diagram. Your suggested swap is a problem if black plays 1. ... Nd6 after 1. 0-0. White's power is then probably insufficient to win.

cobra91

I've edited my 1st diagram (post #28), but you guys are just too fast (and too hardcore Laughing) for me to keep up...

cobra91

As I am fairly certain that absolutely no one will bother to go back and find the edited post, I should probably just "clone" the revised version from post #28 right here:

Arisktotle

That probably works as well! (I am careful now). As long as you are convinced that the white and black wins are in good order, then the precise retro-trajectory is not so important. Only the motivation in the substitution-analysis is critical and it is the same for all correct versions.

Congrats!