I'm just teasing. There are a lot of good players on here and you are one of them.
By the way, given your blitz rating, how are you not higher than 2000 in online? Do you play online as if it's blitz, not spending much time on each move?
Ya, unfortunately I just take about 30 or 40 seconds to play the moves in Online, too. And then I complain that my Online opponents are moving like snails. I should concentrate a little more, but I always played fast since I learned the moves 10 years ago.
" And what kind of a rating do you think a USCF 1800 OTB will have for online chess? The only way they would have a rating less than 2000 is if they don't take their games at all seriously."
Interesting. So, if my USCF rating is 2100, then my online rating should be like 2300?
I agree with your assessment that many players over 2000 are honest . I'm one of them. But you might argue that premium members have an edge over non-premium members who cannot click the explore link and easily see what the masters are doing in the opening. There are other ways to do the same but ..... they sure make it easy for us Premium members.
You sound a bit paranoid. Don't worry about someone rated 600 cheating. Everyone makes good and bad moves and a lot of people, certainly me, make better moves while they have the time (on their clock) and inclination to concentrate and analyse. Moves made quickly are likely to be poorer.
" And what kind of a rating do you think a USCF 1800 OTB will have for online chess? The only way they would have a rating less than 2000 is if they don't take their games at all seriously."
Interesting. So, if my USCF rating is 2100, then my online rating should be like 2300?
I agree with your assessment that many players over 2000 are honest . I'm one of them. But you might argue that premium members have an edge over non-premium members who cannot click the explore link and easily see what the masters are doing in the opening. There are other ways to do the same but ..... they sure make it easy for us Premium members.
In general, the online rating seems to be at least a couple hundred points higher than the blitz or USCF rating, assuming that the player is spending time on every move for online play and taking advantage of available resources (openings database and other learning resources).
It's definitely true that if one party does take advantage of opening databases and books, and the other party does not, then the first has a huge edge over the second.
" And what kind of a rating do you think a USCF 1800 OTB will have for online chess? The only way they would have a rating less than 2000 is if they don't take their games at all seriously."
Interesting. So, if my USCF rating is 2100, then my online rating should be like 2300?
I agree with your assessment that many players over 2000 are honest . I'm one of them. But you might argue that premium members have an edge over non-premium members who cannot click the explore link and easily see what the masters are doing in the opening. There are other ways to do the same but ..... they sure make it easy for us Premium members.
All joking aside, I realize that yours and others intent is not to cheat, per se, but looking up moves in the opening on what masters have done when the game is in progress is, IMO, essentially cheating.
It would be like sitting down to play an over the board game, and while the game is in progress, to ask a much better player than myself, "here in the opening, what have you used that is a good move that has worked in the past?".
What is my definition of not cheating? While the game is in progress, its simply not getting any help from any outside sources. Essentially as if you were sitting across from the opponent, playing. If you two were playing at a tournament, I doubt you would be allowed to get help from data bases.
" And what kind of a rating do you think a USCF 1800 OTB will have for online chess? The only way they would have a rating less than 2000 is if they don't take their games at all seriously."
Interesting. So, if my USCF rating is 2100, then my online rating should be like 2300?
I agree with your assessment that many players over 2000 are honest . I'm one of them. But you might argue that premium members have an edge over non-premium members who cannot click the explore link and easily see what the masters are doing in the opening. There are other ways to do the same but ..... they sure make it easy for us Premium members.
In general, the online rating seems to be at least a couple hundred points higher than the blitz or USCF rating, assuming that the player is spending time on every move for online play and taking advantage of available resources (openings database and other learning resources).
It's definitely true that if one party does take advantage of opening databases and books, and the other party does not, then the first has a huge edge over the second.
"It's definitely true that if one party does take advantage of opening databases and books, and the other party does not, then the first has a huge edge over the second."
Sap, if you are doing THAT, then that's a different story. That is essentially cheating.
If you learn a repertoire that is in a book by heart, is that cheating also? All the world studies openings...
Nope, let me define cheating a little bit more specific for you, Lou.
If you ALREADY have the knowledge in your head and are playing the game, of course that's not cheating.
If you are playing the game, and DO NOT have the knowledge, but need to consult a friend, a book, a database, etc, for a SPECIFIC setup on the chessboard, then, YES, that is cheating.
Could I stray back to the discussion here? Why do people throw games? Most often at the beginning, with absurd moves. What's to gain?
Throw games? If I'm not interested in the outcome, I'll play quickly, throw the kitchen sink ( kitchen sink variation ) and see what happens. If I'm playing serious chess, then I'll play to win.
So, in online games, some are using outside help, whereas others are only using THEIR knowledge to play the on going game. Sounds like a load of crap to me.
However, if people cheat, I couldn't really care less. If we are playing for money, THEN there's an issue, ie tournaments, betting games, etc. If people want to play their games on here like that, so be it.
It IS technically cheating, whether someone says you can do it or not. Cheating is using help, other than playing the game completely yourself.
Probably the vast majority over 1800 are using at least an opening database, as they should. The rules of correspondence chess have always allowed research. That is the nature of the beast.
And how would you suggest detecting the use of books/databases if they were outlawed?
Xcheck, I think more than anything, whether you can detect someone cheating or not, the main thing is you DON'T come out and SAY they can legally cheat. Online chess here is not technically correspondence chess. Correspondence chess most times can use even computer engines. Online chess on here is slower than blitz, of course, but not true correspondence.
I think one's own conscience should be the rule, along with having it made known that outside help is not cool. And then, if they still cheat, like many of them do, let them. I wouldn't want to be them and do not envy them a bit.
Again, if we are playing for money, then I'd be a bunch more ticked. On here, not so much.
Are there ppl cheating here on chess.com ROFL.
Isn't a question for chess server or otb, is there anyone cheating they question of importance is what is the perentage of ppl cheating , and what is the percentage of those that get away with it,
I would think yaho chess would be a good place to benhmark worst case with 90% cheating and none being stopped from doing so, then chessube, with i as at the moment prb the best service but at a price.
so maybe the question that needs to be asked is what perentage of players on a gien erver are cheating with engine asssistance.
this can be be meaured by the skew of the population of ranking of players on a server , as the ideal askew of ratings is 0 and has geometric profile,
where as for high perentage of engine users would hae a population of rankings more skewed to the higher ratings li that of playchess engine accounts or fics engine accounts.
so for a good indiator of fairne of play on chess server
would be the amount of skew of the population of players playing on the server.
It is pity that chess serer dont give a graph of the population of players ratings who are atively playing on server before you jion the server. this graph is i think most important statistic of a servers effort to stop cheating.
humans skewness in fair played game is 0 anything on either side this figure jut indiates size of the cheating problem for that server.
it would be imple then to rank servers on fairnes indicator by how close to zero a servers skewness of ratings on the server, and where is the mean rating on the server.
For humans our elo rateing of play is some mean value with variene of plus or minus 160 elo points, for engines the varience of far less as they almost totally eliminate human error from there game and play a game like painter who is painting by numbers that have a descrete measure of goodness in 1/100 th of pawn values, whereas humans have blind spots and at best we an only judge the value of a move to withing half pawn value at best.
one thing heat will never get is the satisfiation of playing a winning combination and the exitement from playing such game.
They have to forever suffer winning a game without knowing truly why they won and forever unable to repeat for game for real as the reason they moved eah piece to win the game was thought of by the engine and all they did was be puppet of engines suggested play.
No engine user will ever get the buzz i get from playing great game, when they do play great game all they prob worry about is how obvious was that game indicator of them cheating rofl.
Mr_Tarkanian, chess.com clearly says that you are permitted to use opening databases and books for online chess, but not engines or endgame tablebases. You suggested one's own conscience should be the rule, but how about just letting THE RULES be the rules. That's what they're for, and we don't have to worry about people saying their conscience tells them that using Houdini is fine ;-)
Anybody who doesn't want to use the opening explorer or other learning resources other than engines or tablebases in online chess is free to not use them. They either play at a disadvantage or not play online chess at all, or they can negotiate ahead of time to play with people who agree not to use the opening explorer or outside books.
Can people that aren't premium members use opening explorer?
You are right that Chess.com says what is technically legal on their site. They say that premium members can kind of cheat and use outside help with explorer, etc, but cannot FULLY cheat by using engines, etc.
My view is play the *^#$* game using YOUR own skill at the time, not OTHERS. That's fully what I live by and even though I am a premium member and someone tells me I can get outside hints in my on going game, I won't do it. Simply because that is cheating, plain and simple.
I just checked, and it lets you use the opening explorer for 5 moves if you're a free member like me. It's perfectly possible to get a large database of games for free though by using resources like TWIC, and there are some open databases that are out there.
It's not cheating at all to use the opening explorer for online chess. Cheating means breaking the rules in some way, plain and simple. You don't get to redefine standard terms and enforce your own private notion of what "cheating" means. chess.com defines the rules 100% for play on chess.com, and your subjective feeling of what you think the rules SHOULD BE doesn't affect anything at all. You are behaving like somebody who just learned chess getting crushed OTB in the opening because his opponent suckered him into a well-known trap, and then crying that his opponent cheated because he learned the trap from a book and didn't discover it himself over the board.
Online chess at chess.com IS a form of correspondence chess -- it's much closer to that than to OTB chess -- and the rules there have always been that openings databases and other resources are perfectly permissible.
I'm just teasing. There are a lot of good players on here and you are one of them.