@btickler
There is no need to dig it up.
I provided a direct link to the post. Here it is again.
https://www.chess.com/forum/view/off-topic/covid-19-discussion?quote_id=68230065&page=183#comment-68230065
You may not be aware that the paperclip button on each post can be clicked and the link to it goes into the clipboard for copy/paste.
when the link is then posted - you can click it and it will not only take you to that page - it will highlight the post concerned in grey.
He 'apologized'? Then why has he been repeating this behaviour?
You have refuted several of his posts - but he hasn't tried these tactics with you - apparently because he's scared of you.
He knows you'll block him if he tries that stuff with you.
Another thing:
When he first posted he indicated that maybe he won't be 'welcomed'.
Suggesting he's tried this elsewhere and it was rejected.
His post was a direct opposite of what I said - not a misunderstanding.
In other words it wasn't stupidity (it would have to be grossly stupid - to be so) - it was disingenuous behaviour.
He's repeated this multiple times.
Also I tried to PM you a while back - I got no reply.
You don't have to PM me back - I know that.
But if this is to be resolved it might be a way to do so.
Covid-19 Discussion (moderated)
@btickler
There is no need to dig it up.
I provided a direct link to the post. Here it is again.
https://www.chess.com/forum/view/off-topic/covid-19-discussion?quote_id=68230065&page=183#comment-68230065
You may not be aware that the paperclip button on each post can be clicked and the link to it goes into the clipboard for copy/paste.
when the link is then posted - you can click it and it will not only take you to that page - it will highlight the post concerned in grey.
He 'apologized'? Then why has he been repeating this behaviour?
You have refuted several of his posts - but he hasn't tried these tactics with you - apparently because he's scared of you.
He knows you'll block him if he tries that stuff with you.
Another thing:
When he first posted he indicated that maybe he won't be 'welcomed'.
Suggesting he's tried this elsewhere and it was rejected.
His post was a direct opposite of what I said - not a misunderstanding.
In other words it wasn't stupidity (it would have to be grossly stupid - to be so) - it was disingenuous behaviour.
He's repeated this multiple times.
Also I tried to PM you a while back - I got no reply.
You don't have to PM me back - I know that.
But if this is to be resolved it might be a way to do so.
I was referring to digging up Chamo's apology. If he's repeated this "opposite" behavior multiple times, I haven't seen it emerging as a trend 
...so you'll have to point these occurrences out explicitly. I think you're overreacting, and that the casual observer would read these exchanges as you hounding Chamo, not the other way around.
If they cannot perform the job as required, then they need to transfer to another position internally, or leave. It's not that complicated.
Next you will try to tell us that if insurance companies want to start dropping unvaccinated clients, or refusing to pay for Covid-related charges for unvaccinated people, that they are violating people's civil rights ...
Vaccines aren't a required skill to perform the job, nor is it a cost/wage to pay, nor does it really make much of a difference in regards to the state of the person outside of individual protection of a dangerous case/death from COVID.
Vaccines are a requirement, like wearing scrubs, gloves, and masks. Like carrying your ID badge. Like having a nursing credential. Like washing your hands after each patient seen. Etc. Whether you think it makes a difference doesn't matter one iota.
@btickler - "Whether you think it makes a difference doesn't matter one iota."
there you are trying to firmly reason with this person.
If it had been me or somebody else - it would have been pingpong from him.
If you are the only one who can firmly talk back to him -
then he potentially will pull this with everyone else except you.
Hence his initial post when he first started posting here -
that maybe he wouldn't be 'welcomed' here.
Its like he knew what was going to happen.
"and that the casual observer would read these exchanges as you hounding Chamo, not the other way around."
Which would be what he wants.
I think you 'cured' him of the nursing thing ...
but he's not going to let go of his tactic of ignoring the reality that if somebody's immune system has defeated the virus earlier because of previous vaccination - then how would that person then spread the disease ?
Is it like talking to a wall?
Not exactly.
What should be done about whoever -
if anybody says ... well A = B + C ...
and then the other then keeps saying:
'you mean D = F + G'
and you say - 'will you Kindly not keep changing what I say and also personalizing?' and he then screams "please don't be Hostile - its a big misunderstanding"
Is it possible that this person simply can't even ever consider any other point of view other than his own? (except for ridiculous strawman versions of what the other person just said)
Side point:
There's a difference between Disinformation and Misinformation.
@btickler I think you're doing a good job of interfering with Covid disinformation and misinformation.
In your posts.
But reinterpreting posts about Covid measures - is also Covid disinformation.
Are we all allowed here to interfere with these Tactical attempts at Covid disinformation ? Or at Covid misinformation?
The difference would seem to be:
Disinformation is a malicious and calculated operation.
Misinformation - is more like stupidity and stupid rumor-mongering about downplaying measures against Covid.
But Tactical Misinformation is something else again.
I see these dynamics all the time in discussions of other subjects.
And it almost never matters and can be ignored 99% of the time.
Cognitive disonnance. Cognition bias.
Or even crazy Flat Earth stuff.
But this is different.
This is somebody serving notice that he'll tactically both misinterpret and personalize any and every post that interferes with his Covid misinformation - except such interfering posts from the original poster.
He will do so Consistently. Every time.
Regarding pointing out these 'opposite' and other 'alterings' of things posted (not even addressed to him) ...
I have a suggestion for now ...
yes - I could dig up some of those (he could just go back and delete them of course - which might actually do some good)
but instead - its likely there'll be more.
Other people might post soon. I might post too.
We could just see if he pulls this again.
I don't think he's going to pull it with you.
I could even try to repost something I posted earlier ...
But for now - I want to see if some people will post now.
I try to avoid consecutive postings - especially three or more.
@btickler - "Whether you think it makes a difference doesn't matter one iota."
there you are trying to firmly reason with this person.
If it had been me or somebody else - it would have been pingpong from him.
If you are the only one who can firmly talk back to him -
then he potentially will pull this with everyone else except you.
Hence his initial post when he first started posting here -
that maybe he wouldn't be 'welcomed' here.
Its like he knew what was going to happen.
"and that the casual observer would read these exchanges as you hounding Chamo, not the other way around."
Which would be what he wants.
I think you 'cured' him of the nursing thing ...
but he's not going to let go of his tactic of ignoring the reality that if somebody's immune system has defeated the virus earlier because of previous vaccination - then how would that person then spread the disease ?
Is it like talking to a wall?
Not exactly.
What should be done about whoever -
if anybody says ... well A = B + C ...
and then the other then keeps saying:
'you mean D = F + G'
and you say - 'will you Kindly not keep changing what I say and also personalizing?' and he then screams "please don't be Hostile - its a big misunderstanding"
Is it possible that this person simply can't even ever consider any other point of view other than his own? (except for ridiculous strawman versions of what the other person just said)
Side point:
There's a difference between Disinformation and Misinformation.
@btickler I think you're doing a good job of interfering with Covid disinformation and misinformation.
In your posts.
But reinterpreting posts about Covid measures - is also Covid disinformation.
Are we all allowed here to interfere with these Tactical attempts at Covid disinformation ? Or at Covid misinformation?
The difference would seem to be:
Disinformation is a malicious and calculated operation.
Misinformation - is more like stupidity and stupid rumor-mongering about downplaying measures against Covid.
But Tactical Misinformation is something else again.
I see these dynamics all the time in discussions of other subjects.
And it almost never matters and can be ignored 99% of the time.
Cognitive disonnance. Cognition bias.
Or even crazy Flat Earth stuff.
But this is different.
This is somebody serving notice that he'll tactically both misinterpret and personalize any and every post that interferes with his Covid misinformation - except such interfering posts from the original poster.
He will do so Consistently. Every time.
Regarding pointing out these 'opposite' and other 'alterings' of things posted (not even addressed to him) ...
I have a suggestion for now ...
yes - I could dig up some of those (he could just go back and delete them of course - which might actually do some good)
but instead - its likely there'll be more.
Other people might post soon. I might post too.
We could just see if he pulls this again.
I don't think he's going to pull it with you.
I could even try to repost something I posted earlier ...
But for now - I want to see if some people will post now.
I try to avoid consecutive postings - especially three or more.
You'll note that after asking for examples of these occurrences that you are convinced are consistent and happen every time, you produced only a hypothetical about how Chamo would react to you posting something I posted.
You posited that Chamo will "ping pong" with anyone...but somehow it's only with you. If it turns out later to be everyone else, then I will do something about Chamo (I have not conferred sainthood upon him or anything), but that does not justify your behavior now.
Last warning. Stop harassing Chamo directly, and stop talking about it indirectly. Your next meandering tirade directed his way will result in a block for spamming, and I doubt anyone will speak up on your behalf should that happen. If you wish to refute his discussion points, go ahead and dispute the facts, but without the personal aspersions.
I'm reposting something I said earlier - with some slight alterations.
I want to see what happens.
And I've added a note at the bottom too.
//////////////////////////////////////
An interesting new trend in the Coronavirus worldometer site these days -
daily worldwide deaths from Covid ...
seem to have now gone down (looking at the graph)
to around 2500 per day ... as opposed to far over 10,000 such deaths per day three months ago.
This is addressed to most people reading -
the post isn't about me
- its about this new statistical trend.
But new cases per day is still way up there.
That however - does not mean that vaccination does not slow the spread of Covid. Of Course it slows the spread.
But graphs and figures can be Egregiously misinterpreted to argue an illogical contrary.
As to the hospitalization rate of new cases - its not on the main chart on that site.
I'm sure there are many charts on the web - some of them probably more trustworthy than others.
But thats about charts and the web - not about me.
And in another Covid News item -
the city of Philadelphia in the USA is being sued for bringing back mask mandates in some indoor areas.
Only in the USA would that happen ?
A lawsuit because of placing much value on human lives ...
but that could be googled ...
legal anger over saving lives - reducing hospitalizations .. reducing the spread of the disease.
Would some try to distort the statistics - push a misinterpretation of the measures against Covid as hard as they can?
Try to personalize those making a real effort?
Sure they would. They do. And with much tactics.
Perhaps pretending that they've 'answered the questions'.
Seems to be a Big Tactic in the open forums on the website -
answer ever post so that it appears that the questions are 'answered' whereas in fact they're not but others then decide not to post.
Whether persons like Joseph Mercola or Marjorie Greene ...
The Covid disinfo effort appears to be headquartered in the USA - but what country would rank second in Covid Disinformation ?
Could be researched.
Covid Disinformation and Misinformation and Misinterpretation -
is a kind of disease in and of itself.
Its spread could perhaps be charted against time and geographically.
/////////////////
Regarding being asked for 'explicit' examples of a certain thing -
I hesitated to do so because one blatant example appeared to be sufficient.
There's been several - but if I had brought them out -
then I could have been alternately blamed for doing that too.
If I cannot defend myself against misinterpretations of my posts made in a personal way that name me and call me out -
then that is an unfair thing that is going on.
There are several instances. They are easy to find.
Regardless of whether somebody 'comes to my aid or not'.
I go by the merits of the situation. Not forum politics.
Not likes and dislikes either and not power plays.
Should interfering with the peddling of Covid misinformation about vaccination be disallowed?
I say no. It shouldn't be.
The opening poster even mentioned 'cognition bias'.
Nobody else can?
/////////////////////////////////////
I got this too: from the opening poster:
"Posters may point out negatives...that arguments are illogical, tactics are being repeated, etc."
I can give the link information.
I've been doing this - so why would I then get warnings about doing exactly what was obviously permitted ?
Its beginning to look like harassment.
I can't help but notice that you narrow your Covid stats down to 0-19, but leave your adverse vaccine incidence rates as general to all ages.
How about about comparing for us the fatality rate of 0-19 vaccinated vs. 0-19 unvaccinated, and breaking out serious adverse reaction rates for 0-19, and more importantly, death rates among 0-19 from adverse vaccine reactions? I suspect you don't have the latter two sets of data available due to some very fuzzy statistics around serious adverse reactions.
I find the notion of negative efficacy to be fairly dubious, which is probably why I have nopt seen this employed elsewhere . Consider, for example, that someone that decides to go unvaccinated is far more likely to also go unhospitalized once they do get sick. You statistics here only show the people that actually got treated and showed up in the stats...unless these stats include some fudge factor estimate to capture the unhospitalized.
As for the exchanges of the past couple of days, let's remember to discuss the facts, not to attack the posters. Posters may point out negatives...that arguments are illogical, tactics are being repeated, etc. but stay away from directly insulting anyone purely for who they are.
That's the full post.
With
Posters may point out negatives...that arguments are illogical, tactics are being repeated, etc.
Here's the link to it ... https://www.chess.com/forum/view/off-topic/covid-19-discussion?page=194#comment-68916755
That's what I've been doing - pointing out that tactics are being repeated.
And I've been doing that my way - rather than being bullied into doing it somebody else's way.
Regarding reportability of all of this to staff - I imagine its not -
as people can block who they wish.
Interfering with Covid misinformation and disinformation -
its been a good forum.
But talking back to those personalizing that interference - not allowed?
Not good.
I got 2 Pfizer shots, some time passed, I got sick with pneumonia but tested negative for Covid-19. Some time passed and was sick again. This time we all tested positive for Covid-19 and I had pneumonia again. Should I get the boosters?
I got 2 Pfizer shots, some time passed, I got sick with pneumonia but tested negative for Covid-19. Some time passed and was sick again. This time we all tested positive for Covid-19 and I had pneumonia again. Should I get the boosters?
Hi Sam !
'pneumonia' is very often a major symptom of Covid.
A 'symptomatic disorder'.
Coroners in some places sometimes write down 'pneumonia' as cause of death - where the pneumonia was Covid.
Sam - its noteworthy that none of you died from Covid.
You all survived. You're all relatively well now right ?
Now testing negative again?
Any hospitalizations during the recent sicknesses?
I don't recall - but have the previous vaccinations ever made you sick?
Should you get the boosters ?
I'm not going to practice medicine without a license ... 
A lot of people have been questioning the boosters because of new forms of Covid coming out.
I'll just add this - many who have got Covid after being vaccinated have probably thought about what it might have meant - especially for the last year - if they had got the Covid without being vaccinated.
The stats have been Intense about the death rate among the unvaccinated.
Partially vaccinated ? That's another set of stats.
Sam - another thing.
As a very educated man - you know about 'empirical science' as opposed to other aspects of science.
There's a thing that happens when people go strictly by empirical science only - Is it called 'empiricism' ? Not quite.
But an overemphasis or overreaction of empiricism at the expense of rationale and logic and other aspects of science and reasoning ...
Care to comment about 'Empiricism only' ?
I got 2 Pfizer shots, some time passed, I got sick with pneumonia but tested negative for Covid-19. Some time passed and was sick again. This time we all tested positive for Covid-19 and I had pneumonia again. Should I get the boosters?
Hello Sam!
That's the full post.
With
Posters may point out negatives...that arguments are illogical, tactics are being repeated, etc.
Here's the link to it ... https://www.chess.com/forum/view/off-topic/covid-19-discussion?page=194#comment-68916755
That's what I've been doing - pointing out that tactics are being repeated.
And I've been doing that my way - rather than being bullied into doing it somebody else's way.
Regarding reportability of all of this to staff - I imagine its not -
as people can block who they wish.
Interfering with Covid misinformation and disinformation -
its been a good forum.
But talking back to those personalizing that interference - not allowed?
Not good.
"Your way" includes a constant flow of comments that denigrate another poster when that poster is not responding in kind. You might think that there's some kind of balance because you are counting every claim of misunderstanding is just a clever and underhanded attack, but there isn't a balance. If you choose to persist in this belief, I guess you'll have to get more clever about disguising "attacks" in the manner that seems to you to be working so well against you .
Decouple the arguments and tactics from the poster.
I don't want to interfere between the OP and a poster but for my part (I'm also allowed to defend myself), I just want to add that there is still no proof of me promoting any kind of disinformation or intentional promotion of misinformation.
I don't want to interfere between the OP and a poster but for my part (I'm also allowed to defend myself), I just want to add that there is still no proof of me promoting any kind of disinformation or intentional promotion of misinformation.
Well, to be fair, it takes a certain mercenary greed to *intentionally* promote something you know is misinformation during a pandemic ...Alex Jones types, etc.
On google, it says Alex Jones is a conspiracy theorist. I guess I see where you're coming from, I would assume Raoult is not included?
But anyway as for unintentional misinformation if somebody could point it out that would be great too.
'pneumonia' is very often a major symptom of Covid. That doesn't sound right. Pneumonia was around for yrs before Covid. You can get a vaccine for pneumonia.
'pneumonia' is very often a major symptom of Covid. That doesn't sound right. Pneumonia was around for yrs before Covid. You can get a vaccine for pneumonia.
I believe Covid has been mistaken for Pneumonia. We all know that Covid tests are not 100% accurate
That's the full post.
With
Posters may point out negatives...that arguments are illogical, tactics are being repeated, etc.
Here's the link to it ... https://www.chess.com/forum/view/off-topic/covid-19-discussion?page=194#comment-68916755
That's what I've been doing - pointing out that tactics are being repeated.
And I've been doing that my way - rather than being bullied into doing it somebody else's way.
Regarding reportability of all of this to staff - I imagine its not -
as people can block who they wish.
Interfering with Covid misinformation and disinformation -
its been a good forum.
But talking back to those personalizing that interference - not allowed?
Not good.
"Your way" includes a constant flow of comments that denigrate another poster when that poster is not responding in kind. You might think that there's some kind of balance because you are counting every claim of misunderstanding is just a clever and underhanded attack, but there isn't a balance. If you choose to persist in this belief, I guess you'll have to get more clever about disguising "attacks" in the manner that seems to you to be working so well against you .
Decouple the arguments and tactics from the poster.
@btickler
1) The 'other poster' is initiating the situations - rather than not 'responding in kind'
2) In another passage - you suggested somebody was morally deficient.
If I was like you - I could say you were 'hounding' him.
Suggestion - you were doing the right thing - because it was properly motivated. However a 'casual observer' dropping in might shallowly react to your posts with neither bothering to read the context nor think.
And - the subject of Covid isn't a 'casual' one.
3) A person claimed one was 'safe' by using the measures other than vaccination. That is Covid misinformation.
And its the kind of rumor-mongering that could cost somebody reading here their life ...
Proof: people dying of Covid have admitted they were victims of misinformation. They have begged for vaccination after its too late.
This is Well Known.
Easy to find on the Internet.
The whole idea of A or B 100% 'protection' or 'non-protection' is dangerous misinformation.
One would be 'safe' if one was thoroughly quarantined.
Things like just the mask and handwashing and social distancing do not confer 'safety'.
They help - they reduce the transmissions and deaths -
but numerically. On a scalar basis. Not a panacea A or B basis.
At the other extreme of misinformation -
"Oh I got vaccinated so I don't need to do the other things and you don't either"
That is Dangerous Misinformation too.
Its cost a lot of lives - Dichotomizing Covid at either end of foolish A or B extremes.
Mistake:"if you stop at red lights - you don't need to fasten seat belt."
"you fasten seat belt - so you don't need to do defensive driving"
Those kinds of misinformation and disinformation - in the Covid context - have cost a lot of lives.
"3) A person claimed one was 'safe' by using the measures other than vaccination. That is Covid misinformation."
If COVID-19 is spreading in your community, stay safe by taking some simple precautions, such as physical distancing, wearing a mask, keeping rooms well ventilated, avoiding crowds, cleaning your hands, and coughing into a bent elbow or tissue. Check local advice where you live and work. Do it all! (no vaccination included).
Logically, the virus cannot be transmitted if 6 feet are respected, face masks interfere between the organs that are vulnerable of covid transmission, and the room is ventilated (if indoor) and hands are clean. How can not being vaccinated make a difference if all of these are respected
Australia has tried harder than the US in multiple ways. To fight Covid.
Measures against Covid - work better in Combination.
Vaccination by itself. Good. But with people wearing masks too -
then the virus is finding fewer hosts. Its mathematical ability to spread is greatly reduced. Whether variants or not.
Masks 'work'. But they work better with vaccinations thrown in too.
Social distancing helps. Lockdowns help. Regulations help.
Hygiene helps.
Commonsense helps too.
Disinfo people will try to micro-assess each measure.
With apathy to the measures working in concert to fight the disease.
Wanting others to be oblivious to the effectiveness of concerted actions and measures.
So you're saying Australia did not use the precautions as much as the US? Any sources for that? And that COVID decided to hit 800 000 people in 28 days after the vaccination campaign, and only 200 000 in the whole two years before that?
Let's say omicron's transmission is that much greater than other variants, how are the vaccines that are also at "82% effective against omicron with 2 doses, and more than 90% with a booster" decreasing the spreading of the virus?
@btickler
The above quote illustrates what I'm talking about.
The 'So you're saying Australia did not use the precautions as much as the US? .... ' reply is an Obnoxious tactic.
In that reply he is saying the opposite of what I said.
Right there in the same post.
That post can be accessed directly with this link https://www.chess.com/forum/view/off-topic/covid-19-discussion?quote_id=68230065&page=183#comment-68230065
The 'so you're saying ...' line is a direct reference to me personally and his reply is a slander of what I said.
Its right there.
Its him getting on me - not me getting on him.
In a previous post you seemed to suggest I had a right to expose these tactics.
I could dig that up too.
But I don't want to argue with you:
My point: If you let him get away with this kind of thing - it does not serve a good purpose. It will encourage him to continue with 'so your logic ..." and other personalization posts.
In another previous post - you asked him to delete something unsupported and he agreed to delete.
Idea (respectfully) Ask him to delete the slandering post and to apologize for same with no silly 'ifs' or phony 'ready'.
And to promise to try harder to refrain from such ...
With another idea in mind:
that all his past similiar tactical posts are then ignored by addressing that single one ....
with him thus having made amends (is he capable of same) then the whole thing gets 'put behind' in a legitimate way.
I'm not going to take blame for his totally reversing my posts.
I am not going to dig it up, but I am under the impression that Chamo later apologized for that? In any case, it matters little
. The proportion of your response is out of whack. I would not have to go back nearly as far as you just did to find a dozen or more pokes or prods from you towards him. When I read that post originally, I actually thought he just misunderstood, not that he tried to purposefully misrepresent you.