Difference Between Knowledge and Understanding

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You don't really 'understand' that it's burning but you understand how or why things are. And when you say you understand that it's burning it's merely a facon de parler for knowing that

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Hatty-Freeham wrote:

So as Plato said there really isn't a difference between the three types of knowing and you can see that at least in English, it is a sloppy language and the lines get blurred - although I think it is important to have these distinctions of knowledge to see what is make-believe knowledge so to speak and what is true knowledge

Not sloppy, it's a normal language. Sloppy implies it was supposed to be nicely made up and words shouldn't have blurred meaning.

But language never promised anyone it wasn't going to be blurred. I guess the reason it is blurred, it that if we had clear-cut words we would need 10s or 100 thousands more to say the things we want to, and we cannot learn that many words. For instance, we use the word "walking" for very different movenemt patterns. If we had a crystal word for each and every kind of walk at every speed level, we'd need hundreds or thousands of words for all the different walking styles. It's easier just to use one.

It's not a problem though, if you need a crystal clear concept, you just make clear "when I write KNOW i mean the following and nothing else", and then people know what's going on. You can also just make up new words.

Avatar of najdorf96

I always say,

The chicken came before the egg.

In respect to this thread, I use this example because I understand an egg cannot be conceived without a male & female chicken (ironically from prior knowledge) but also without knowing nor understanding how & why they came to be in the first place. Which is, I guess using practical reasoning to answer a metaphysical question though it is still objective.

Avatar of Johnny_Climaxus
Raspberry_Yoghurt wrote:
Hatty-Freeham wrote:

So as Plato said there really isn't a difference between the three types of knowing and you can see that at least in English, it is a sloppy language and the lines get blurred - although I think it is important to have these distinctions of knowledge to see what is make-believe knowledge so to speak and what is true knowledge

Not sloppy, it's a normal language. Sloppy implies it was supposed to be nicely made up and words shouldn't have blurred meaning.

But language never promised anyone it wasn't going to be blurred. I guess the reason it is blurred, it that if we had clear-cut words we would need 10s or 100 thousands more to say the things we want to, and we cannot learn that many words. For instance, we use the word "walking" for very different movenemt patterns. If we had a crystal word for each and every kind of walk at every speed level, we'd need hundreds or thousands of words for all the different walking styles. It's easier just to use one.

It's not a problem though, if you need a crystal clear concept, you just make clear "when I write KNOW i mean the following and nothing else", and then people know what's going on. You can also just make up new words.

Agree

Avatar of Johnny_Climaxus

But most people don't say what they mean when they say they know something

Avatar of Johnny_Climaxus

And they use the word understanding for example once in the propositional sense and once in the veridical sense...that's what was meant by sloppy

Avatar of Johnny_Climaxus

and they substitute knowledge for understanding when really it is knowledge (or it is understanding - but pick one!)

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Hatty-Freeham escreveu:
kkl10 wrote:

There's no knowledge without understanding, just like there's no understanding without knowledge. On first glance, they look like two different perspectives of the same thing.

 

The question evokes the epistemological problem:

What does it mean to know?

Can one truly know anything?

 

There's no resolution because any conclusions or insights taken from this (or any other) subject are hostages of language.

That's false as people were saying. Using the sloppy language that we have to work with, (although you can see that's why I recommended distinguishing these three types of knowledge and so to speak 'translating' sloppy sentences into the correct form) "knowledge" isn't sufficient for understanding - I can, to use everyday speech, know that it's snowing but not understand how or why it does so. Or I know that I'm dreaming but not how. And vice versa - understanding isn't necessarily sufficient for knowledge - I can understand something but not be confident enough to believe it - hence I wouldn't know. Of course as we've been saying all of this really is semantics, but then if you say that I can just say well everything is everything 

 

I understand what you're saying; you missed my point.

 

I'm talking about the very nature of "knowledge", which is why I mentioned the epistemological problem. This is a deeper issue than the one you're directly addressing, which mostly concerns the way in which we discriminate the words in linguistic expression (as you appear to have said, it's a somewhat redundant semantic exercise).

 

To have any sort of understanding, one needs to have a priori knowledge and vice versa. In other words, one can't build a mental representation of the world without "both things." I put this in quotes because they seem to be essentially the same thing to me.

Avatar of Johnny_Climaxus

If you say you 'understand that it's burning' don't later say that you 'know the chicken came before the egg' for example

Avatar of Johnny_Climaxus

Be consistent

Avatar of Raspberry_Yoghurt
Hatty-Freeham wrote:

But most people don't say what they mean when they say they know something

Just you know what you mean yourself :)

I guess you never really can be sure what other people mean.

"Knowing how" can mean a million different things, from just barely being able to bake the simplest bread, to being an expert master of baking, to being super good at baking pies but not being able to bake a cake, to being able to bake when you are drunk but not when sober etc. So someoe says "yeah I know how to bake", it can mean anything really.

Then off course you can ask more questions and get him to put more words on the table, but i guess because of the blurredness and personal misuse of words (like someone that thinks you're and expert if you can bake a frozen pizza) misunderstandings are always possible.

Avatar of Johnny_Climaxus
kkl10 wrote:
Hatty-Freeham escreveu:
kkl10 wrote:

There's no knowledge without understanding, just like there's no understanding without knowledge. On first glance, they look like two different perspectives of the same thing.

 

The question evokes the epistemological problem:

What does it mean to know?

Can one truly know anything?

 

There's no resolution because any conclusions or insights taken from this (or any other) subject are hostages of language.

That's false as people were saying. Using the sloppy language that we have to work with, (although you can see that's why I recommended distinguishing these three types of knowledge and so to speak 'translating' sloppy sentences into the correct form) "knowledge" isn't sufficient for understanding - I can, to use everyday speech, know that it's snowing but not understand how or why it does so. Or I know that I'm dreaming but not how. And vice versa - understanding isn't necessarily sufficient for knowledge - I can understand something but not be confident enough to believe it - hence I wouldn't know. Of course as we've been saying all of this really is semantics, but then if you say that I can just say well everything is everything 

 

I understand what you're saying; you missed my point.

 

I'm talking about the very nature of "knowledge", which is why I mentioned the epistemological problem. This is a deeper issue than the one you're directly addressing, which mostly concerns the way in which we discriminate the words in linguistic expression (as you appear to have said, it's a somewhat redundant semantic exercise).

 

To have any sort of understanding, one needs to have á priori knowledge and vice versa. One can't build a mental representation of the world without both things.

Yes you need to have a priori knowledge of concepts (or objects so called) So you can understand (get veridical knowledge) from objectual knowledge (knowledge of the concepts), through proposing it (propositional knowledge). So that's what was meant by the triangulation of knowledge

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Love (conceptual or objectual knowledge) expresses hope (veridical knowledge or understanding) through language (propositional knowledge)

"Love expresses hope through language"

It doesn't matter how you conceptualize the three types but they're there

Avatar of Johnny_Climaxus
Raspberry_Yoghurt wrote:
Hatty-Freeham wrote:

But most people don't say what they mean when they say they know something

Just you know what you mean yourself :)

I guess you never really can be sure what other people mean.

"Knowing how" can mean a million different things, from just barely being able to bake the simplest bread, to being an expert master of baking, to being super good at baking pies but not being able to bake a cake, to being able to bake when you are drunk but not when sober etc. So someoe says "yeah I know how to bake", it can mean anything really.

Then off course you can ask more questions and get him to put more words on the table, but i guess because of the blurredness and personal misuse of words (like someone that thinks you're and expert if you can bake a frozen pizza) misunderstandings are always possible.

Yes)) and that is why culture is so important, to shape the way we talk so to speak so that we could understand each other (understanding you, meaning knowing (or "getting") you, or what you meant or knowing how you intended your utterance)

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But you see understanding you really means knowing how you meant it

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That's why English is a sloppy language because it appears like, ok probably not knowing you, but knowing what you meant. But that's not technically correct. I don't really know what you meant (although that's how people speak in English) but really how you meant or intended it

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But again that's why in ancient Greek the distinctions between the types of knowing and understanding aren't prominent like they are in modern English

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which causes English speakers to misuse or at least not be consistent with their word choices, which can confuse meaning precisely

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which causes factions which causes wars etc etc you could argue 

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and you could make it a whole cultural analysis showing why all violence is due to language

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