Does True Randomness Actually Exist? ( ^&*#^%$&#% )

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Avatar of Elroch

Yes, they can. It does however come down to how you interpret "theoretically". You might be thinking of something like "conceivably", which is actually rather different.

You would be correct to take the position that although the laws of physics are present "theory", there is the possibility (in some cases the certainty) that they will one day be found to be not the whole story. In this case, what is theoretically impossible now could turn out to be possible in the future.

However, I would take the view that our present understanding of physics is rather solid in most respects (unlike its state in the 19th century).

Avatar of eryxc
MustangMate wrote:

Think I’ll just have to call you on that one Elroch, the part about getting answers right. 
Just moments ago in your Evolution thread I asked a question “tell me something that is not theoretically possible?”

Your answer: “Anything that breaks the laws of physics” 

 Readers can make their assessment. 

Well everything is theoretically possible, if you bend the rules

Avatar of MustangMate-inactive

Wrong answer Elroch. I won’t bother with your controlling attempts.  

Avatar of MustangMate-inactive

https://www.quantamagazine.org/perpetual-motion-test-could-amend-theory-of-time-20130425/

Theory by Nobel Physics Professor on possibility of perpetual motion. 

Avatar of MustangMate-inactive

In February 2012, the Nobel Prize-winning physicist Frank Wilczek decided to go public with a strange and, he worried, somewhat embarrassing idea. Impossible as it seemed, Wilczek had developed an apparent proof of “time crystals” — physical structures that move in a repeating pattern, like minute hands rounding clocks, without expending energy or ever winding down. Unlike clocks or any other known objects, time crystals derive their movement not from stored energy but from a break in the symmetry of time, enabling a special form of perpetual motion.

Avatar of Sillver1
Elroch wrote:
Sillver1 wrote:

"there's some fraud happening here! "

i dont think so. his responses tells me that he really dont get it. maybe we should just leave him in the dark.. lol. what say you elroch?

With all due humility, I'd point out that I am the one with a distinction in a course on randomness. That means I have a track record of getting answers right on this topic.

I am not sure you understand yet that answer to the title question was conclusively reached in the 20th century (and cemented by even higher quality experiments in the 21st century). 

its been some 8 month now.. and you still you.. confused, and determined to confuse everyone along your way..

so here.. if anyone was following this thread and got the wrong ideas from the elroch.. im willing to try and undo the damage.. he really dont understand what this topic is all about. im serious : )

Avatar of Thee_Ghostess_Lola

With all due humility

omg absolutely hilarious !!

Avatar of Thee_Ghostess_Lola
1818-1828271 wrote:

my username is literally the result of me pressing random keys on my keyboard. i don't know the implication of this

wutta liar !

Avatar of Thee_Ghostess_Lola

"The universe itself, in all its mind-boggling vastness and complexity, could simply have popped into existence without violating the known laws of nature," - s.quawking

Impossible: “Anything that breaks the laws of physics”

Avatar of Thee_Ghostess_Lola

Theory by Nobel Physics Professor on possibility of perpetual motion.

Conservation of Energy...

Creative-Non-Stop-Liquid-Drinking-Glass-Lucky-Bird-Funny-Duck-Drink-Water-Desk-Toy-Perpetual-Motion.jpg_960x960.jpg

Avatar of Elroch
Sillver1 wrote:
Elroch wrote:
Sillver1 wrote:

"there's some fraud happening here! "

i dont think so. his responses tells me that he really dont get it. maybe we should just leave him in the dark.. lol. what say you elroch?

With all due humility, I'd point out that I am the one with a distinction in a course on randomness. That means I have a track record of getting answers right on this topic.

I am not sure you understand yet that answer to the title question was conclusively reached in the 20th century (and cemented by even higher quality experiments in the 21st century). 

its been some 8 month now.. and you still you.. confused, and determined to confuse everyone along your way..

so here.. if anyone was following this thread and got the wrong ideas from the elroch.. im willing to try and undo the damage.. he really dont understand what this topic is all about. im serious : )

I don't doubt your seriousness. But I am still waiting to see a post of yours indicating your proclamation assuming superior knowledge and understanding of this subject. You have also managed to completely ignore the answering of the question last century, set on its way by the thought experiment known as the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen Paradox (in truth it is not a paradox, merely counterintuitive).

Einstein's stated idea was that the randomness intrinsic to quantum mechanics might just be apparent.  He believed physics should be deterministic. He mused that QM could be explained if there were "local hidden variables" - quantities we don't know of which are compatible with physics as we know it - whose variation causes the apparent randomness (a bit like a program we can't see can generate pseudorandom numbers that may look random).  The "local" nature of the variables is key, because without this, these variables would break causality and allow faster than light communication.

Building on this, Bell's theorem says that measurements in a certain class of deterministic causal system would have to obey Bell's inequality, while quantum mechanics predicts that examples of this system violate Bell's inequality. So checking Bell's inequality in real experiments like this is key.

Bell's experiments have all shown that Bell's inequality is broken by a large margin, confirming quantum mechanics and disproving "local realism" (which has no randomness).

Thus, the assumption of causality alone implies there is no deterministic explanation of quantum mechanical phenomena or, to put it another way, there is true randomness in quantum behaviour.

The EPR Paradox

Bell's Theorem

Bell's Test Experiments (including 2015 loophole-free experiment)

A problem is that this stuff is hard to understand. Like many topics, the majority of people who don't understand it (which is perfectly normal) can either accept that the global community of scientists know what they are doing or they can retreat into denial to a state of knowledge before the early 20th century.

Avatar of Uke8

@elroch, I appologzie if my opening post appear convoluted to you.
however, since your idea of true randomness largely contrast mine, I must ask you to align with the topic.
thank you in advance for your corporation and contribution.

Avatar of Thee_Ghostess_Lola

roasted...burst ! thats wutchu get4tryn2hijack the thread !

Avatar of Optimissed
Elroch wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

<<<One of us has a distinction in a course on randomness and has worked on modelling stochastic systems for years. Can you remember which? >>>

Firstly, Elroch says that different labels don't change the nature of the thing being discussed.

i.e. if two labels refer to the SAME concept, it doesn't matter which one you use.

Yes, unless it will cause confusion.

Then he insists we are discussing "true randomness" rather than "apparent randomness",

which are two labels referring to DIFFERENT concepts. Spot anything?

This is what I've been trying to discuss with you. However, you've been ignoring my arguments. I argued (convincingly) that since each is an abstract concept and each carries the same definition, they are one and the same in actuality and that any apparent difference is the result of human or cognitive perspective. However, I didn't expect you would understand or accept that immediately.

although he didn't pay any attention when I tried to engage him on the subject of duality in our thinking about it.

Not sure what you mean, but you caught my attention when you brought up the very relevant topic of pseudo-randomness.

Thanks, ok ...

Now he's saying that he must be right because he's modelled stochastic systems. Didn't say I'm right because I'm the one with a degree in philosophy and have done a lot of further work on theory of knowledge, which is my specialism. He's right and I'm not, of course.

Good for you, but the first subject is about modelling partially random systems.

OK, that is fine. It shouldn't alter the relevance of my comment on it. 

A question. How is it even possible to model stochastic systems? Well, you can do it using a statistical approach, sure, but you can only model the macro view and guess what? When you do that, you are automatically modelling a determined system. The very nature of randomness is that it cannot be modelled with regard to any specific data. You can only model the overview, which is not random at all but which is a product of algorithms designed to imitate randomness. So that may be "A.R." but it isn't "T.R."
All told, there's some fraud happening here!
You tell them!

To be serious, it is both possible to sample from stochastic models (get lots of examples of what might happen) and to directly calculate statistical properties of the range of things that can happen. Both are used a lot.

Yes, I accept that and I don't believe that it alters the weight of the point I was trying to make.

A little about our disagreement. As you know, you asked someone to give the heads up to Sillver on the definition of randomness, I did so, and you didn't acknowledge but came in with a different and more complex idea and moreover it was one I thought contained logical irregularities. I had the impression you were deliberately sowing chaos and confusion. Sillver commented on it. Not on that specifically but in general. I supported him and I got a detention for my trouble. Trouble is, you aren't the teacher. You have some things to teach us, just as I have, just as we all have. I hope that is clear. It's in the past now, though
.

 

 

Avatar of Elroch

I'm sorry you got an impression of "deliberately sowing chaos and confusion". Clearly the only thing that was incorrect about that impression was the "deliberately" part: in truth the reason for me putting things in different words was to attempt to throw light on the concept, for anyone who was puzzled.

In that spirit here are some thoughts that motivated my definition of "true randomness".  I am genuinely hoping this will increase understanding, not confuse! (Hint: I often find reading slowly makes technical things a lot clearer!)

  1. Randomness is a standard concept and refers to uncertainty in predicting something.
  2. As such the word "random" refers not only to some event which can have different outcomes but also, implicitly, to some specific viewpoint (where the predicting is being done from). 

    An illustrative example of why that matters comes from the game of holdem poker. The outcome of interest is how good your final hand will be. Before the cards are dealt, your final hand is very random indeed. You get dealt two cards, which leaves your final hand still rather random, but less so than it was before you saw any. When the flop goes down and as the turn card is seen, the uncertainty is reduced further and finally comes disappears altogether when the river card is visible and you know what hand you have. So the viewpoint (in time) affects how random the final event is.
  3. In physics there are events that happen that are very random from any point of view until after they have happened. One type of example is nuclear decays that cause radioactivity.

    While other types of event may seem to be random, they might be caused by something that has previously happened. For example, whether the Earth gets hit by an asteroid is random in some sense but, if you can track asteroids, the uncertainty is reduced and disappears altogether before a collision occurs. Thus you can think of the initial path of the asteroid as random and the collision a result that becomes increasingly less random until it is certain to either hit or miss.

So that's why I suggested the term "truly random" might refer to something that was unpredictable from any viewpoint except those in its future (when it is not random, because it has happened).

Avatar of MustangMate-inactive
Thee_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

Theory by Nobel Physics Professor on possibility of perpetual motion.

Conservation of Energy...

 

I think you have not even as much as glanced at it being influenced by Elrochs definitions of MY statement. The idea is evidence of “time crystals”, independent of matter that exist in all time. Really fascinating stuff. The guy is recognized as the leading Physicist in his field. The basic particles are NAMED after his 1st theorizing them and subsequent discovery. 

Avatar of MustangMate-inactive

If the time crystals proved to exist, they’d be behaving exactly in the manner of a perpetual motion machine. It’s possible as the machine is not dependent on matter/energy - the Physical Laws. 

So in this sense the time crystals qualify as “theoretical possibility of perpetual motion”.  The time crystals are no different than matter when describing “machine”

Avatar of Optimissed
Elroch wrote:

I'm sorry you got an impression of "deliberately sowing chaos and confusion". Clearly the only thing that was incorrect about that impression was the "deliberately" part: in truth the reason for me putting things in different words was to attempt to throw light on the concept, for anyone who was puzzled.

I wasn't the only one, you know. I think perhaps I should have said something like "carelessly" rather than deliberately, although it's up to us how much care we take that we're understood.

In that spirit here are some thoughts that motivated my definition of "true randomness".  I am genuinely hoping this will increase understanding, not confuse! (Hint: I often find reading slowly makes technical things a lot clearer!)

  1. Randomness is a standard concept and refers to uncertainty in predicting something.
  2. As such the word "random" refers not only to some event which can have different outcomes but also, implicitly, to some specific viewpoint (where the predicting is being done from). 

    I've been arguing for something similar. Unfortunately you have appeared to target perceived negatives rather than points of agreement. I wish you could alter your approach so you appear less confrontational.

    An illustrative example of why that matters comes from the game of holdem poker. The outcome of interest is how good your final hand will be. Before the cards are dealt, your final hand is very random indeed. You get dealt two cards, which leaves your final hand still rather random, but less so than it was before you saw any. When the flop goes down and as the turn card is seen, the uncertainty is reduced further and finally comes disappears altogether when the river card is visible and you know what hand you have. So the viewpoint (in time) affects how random the final event is.>>>

    I have a vague notion of what you mean but I don't play any poker. I have, however, been playing a lot of online Solitaire with two suits over the past two or three months. I hadn't played it since childhood. It's teaching me about maximising chances accruing from a random deal. Actually, the pseudo-random card deal is sometimes very far indeed from random.

  3. In physics there are events that happen that are very random from any point of view until after they have happened. One type of example is nuclear decays that cause radioactivity.

    Yes, I was discussing that in an earlier post. One thing that I disagree with is the notion that after they have happened, they don't appear random. Where does that come from? If it's random then it's random and randomness is all about appearance because appearance governs predictability.

    While other types of event may seem to be random, they might be caused by something that has previously happened. For example, whether the Earth gets hit by an asteroid is random in some sense but, if you can track asteroids, the uncertainty is reduced and disappears altogether before a collision occurs. Thus you can think of the initial path of the asteroid as random and the collision a result that becomes increasingly less random until it is certain to either hit or miss.

    Clearly, yes. Without knowledge of asteroids or meteorites they have to be regarded as random events since we only know they strike every so often.

So that's why I suggested the term "truly random" might refer to something that was unpredictable from any viewpoint except those in its future (when it is not random, because it has happened).

Yes, we were both using it in that sense except that I pointed out a polarity in the way we think about it. I said that we have an abstract concept of true randomness which is like a mathematical limit, and it refers to a concept of real true randomness which possibly exists and which most people assume does exist, but that there's no actual difference between the two concepts since they are defined identically. 

It's possibly a bad habit in a way, but my thought processes about abstract things seem naturally to follow convoluted paths that seem to reflect polarised, subjective standpoints. Some people do struggle to follow them and if I'm writing something serious I always have to go through it to check whether any of my ambiguities shouldn't be there at all.

 

Avatar of MustangMate-inactive

Searching .... searching for a cause. Ah  ... here one is. Wonder if something else may have attributed? Ah  .... there it is. Can’t seem to find any causes for this over here though. We ‘ll just have to call it random and go about normal business. 

Avatar of Elroch
MustangMate wrote:

If the time crystals proved to exist, they’d be behaving exactly in the manner of a perpetual motion machine. It’s possible as the machine is not dependent on matter/energy - the Physical Laws. 

So in this sense the time crystals qualify as “theoretical possibility of perpetual motion”.  The time crystals are no different than matter when describing “machine”

While fascinating, physicists agree time crystals are not perpetual motion devices, simply because they don't meet the definition. As Wikipedia paraphrases from reference texts: "A perpetual motion machine is a hypothetical machine that can do work indefinitely without an energy source. This kind of machine is impossible, as it would violate the first or second law of thermodynamics."

As an article on time crystals says:

"Does this mean we have a perpetual-motion device? Well, kinda, and also kinda not. Since physical time crystals are not in equilibrium, they do require a driving mechanism to keep them happy. Turn off the laser, for example, and the time crystal falls asleep. Also, they are in their ground state, which means we can't pull any energy out of them."

So that's a NOT, rather than any "kinda"!  To get any energy out we need to put more energy in (from the laser).

While the Sun is for human purposes a perpetual source of energy, it too fails to meet the definition of perpetual motion since it will run down eventually.

Note:  the Earth perpetually orbiting the Sun according to Newtonian gravity would not qualify as perpetual motion because even though it would orbit forever, there is only a finite amount of energy available if this motion were harnessed. [Interestingly but irrelevant to perpetual motion, general relativity implies that no orbit lasts forever even in a vacuum - gravitational radiation causes all orbits to very slowly decay, but that is a completely unconnected matter].

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