If the universe requires a creator then the creator should require a creator = religion is made-up

dpsholder - I claimed you "seem" to fear admitting to gods. In view of your self testimony replying to my assertion I guess I will retract my concern. My comparison of inferring the existence dark matter is not that different from inferring the existence of god by observing the level of negative entropy seen in life forms for example. Not that this proves there is a god(s) but it can easily lead some to believe so without basing that belief on fear.

Oh, but yes, it is much different. 1 has evidence, while the other doesn't. 

Correct, it doesn't prove the existence of a god, nor does it give good reason to believe a god exists.

But why CANT those that believe learn to disbelieve? What do they think will happen to them if they do disbelieve in a god?

What does God say about those that disbelieve? Do they get paradise for disbelieving or do they get punished for disbelieving? Punished, correct?

I believe the bible says they will get punished, but you are welcome to show me where God will allow them into heaven even though they don't believe in him! 

So, I wonder why in the world are believers unable to leave their god? Why in the world are believers unable to disbelieve?

God exist before his creation, therefore always existed. End of discussion. See how easy that was, not complicated at all.  It is illogical to believe that the universe came without a creator, even most scientists believe in a creator.

Kaynight,you have to believe in the truth. Yes, unfortunately for you they (scientists) do believe in a creator. Check the facts.  Like I mention it is illogical to believe in a universe without a creator, even Einstein believe in a creator. ouch! 

Petrosianpupil, there are things in life that always existed, somethings are unexplainable but with some logic there is evidence to the truth. Creator = a creation. Can you explain how this universe came to an existence?

Just because we know that the earth was created doesn't mean it was created supernaturally. We have evidence of nature, but we have no evidence of supernature.

So when it comes to "thinking about how the universe was created", its only logical to assume it was created naturally.

But you are using "creator" in a way that assumes a god.  For example, what is this creator you are referring to?  Heat?  Cold? Energy? God?  

So when you say to an atheist that this universe had a creator, they reject your statement because of what you are pointing to or implying..........not because of the exact thing you said.

We know that the universe MUST have been created since at one point in time, the universe didn't exist.  So something MUST have caused it to come into existence.

But WHAT?  Nature or supernature? Remember, we have evidence of nature, but have no evidence of supernature.

if you ask WHO created the universe, then you are already asking the wrong question, because only a person's name will satisfy your inquiry.

If you ask WHAT created the universe, then you are not biased, since anything will suffice as the answer so long as the answer is correct.

Nope, not at all, but let me show you how that doesn't matter.

We have evidence of nature. We have no evidence of supernature.

So even if we don't know how the universe was created, its illogical to assume it was created by supernature, since we have no evidence of supernature.  Its logical to think it was created by natural processes.

So you see? We don't have to know a single fact about the big bang or how the universe was created exactly. We don't need to know each step, nor the time it took for each step to occur.

All we have to know is that the universe was created in order to believe it was created naturally............mainly because there is no evidence of supernature.

We may not know exactly, in detail step by step, second by second, but we only have evidence of natural processes, so we can conclude that "no matter of the details", it happened naturally.

there is no evidence of supernature, but tons of evidence of nature.

So I agree that the universe was created, but Im saying that it happened naturally because you have no evidence of a supernaturally created universe.

Sure, it could have come outside.......but I tend to base my beliefs on things that we do know. 

A supernatural cause is a possibility, but if we are to base our beliefs on possibility alone(without probability), then we must also consider, Thor, Zeus, Horus, Allah, etc. etc........since all of these are possible too. We can't prove/show how they are not possible.  

The only evidence we have is natural causes. Without any supernatural evidence there is no reason to believe/know what it can cause.

Have any supernatural evidence?

The overwhelming majority of today scientists  don't believe in any creator. And the logic here is "if nothing can exist without a creator, then the creator must have been created".

Science is not superior to theology.

It's the age old question: which comes first? The egg or the chicken?

That's an easy one.

If the egg you are referring to is a chicken egg, then it reads something like this:  

 Which comes first? The chicken or the chicken egg?

This is easy...........the chicken, because how can a chicken egg come from anything but a chicken.

If the egg you are referring to is an egg, then it reads something like this:

 Which comes first? The chicken or the egg?

This is easy..........the egg, because dinosaurs lived before chickens and dinosaurs laid eggs.

That's an ez one....I think Humpty Dumpty came before any feathery bok bokker.

....and BTW OP, when was the last time u took a good quality cyberslap....'cuz ur cruzin' for one. And think Jack Sparrow on the dock.

Galileo! Evidence-based approach vs faith-based approach to viewing phenomenons that occur all around us... can science prove that there is no creator or is science the proof that a creator exists?

If science can't prove that a creator doesn't exist, then maybe a creator could possibly exist and that science is merely a reflection of the laws of the universe created by this creator?