Tom

That's pretty . I'm not sure .

Anyway we can agree that the belief in free will is a result of direct experience .

I'm curious if that's the case with a belief in God.

Do you feel you have directly experienced God then?

I'm not about to block anyone and I'll open threads as long as I'm allowed . I'm polite and just like to chat and wonder .

Dishes !

yes, it is certain that most who believe in god don't experience god, because they are not believing in god, they are believing in imaginary stuff.

Ah. Interesting . Thank you

Anyway as I say I'm going to accept now what I hold to be true.

There is no God.

There is no free will.

So what next? Well is there an I and does the world exist?

Pain.

Pain is such a sober uper.

We can say do I exist, does our world exist but pain snaps us back to reality.

I hate pain. I don't hate much but pain sucks.

I follow the idea to understand everything is to hate nothing and I'm sure that pleasure can't exist without pain but pain sucks!

I couldn't ever like it.

Does pain mean that we exist though and that our world exists? I don't think so .

I personally tend to believe our world exists.

I mean I can visit Africa and find the places featured in a photograph that I read in a magazine.

I suppose it's possible that the whole thing is some kind of dream but I doubt it .

I'm ready to accept our world exists .

I'm also ready to accept though that other worlds do too and perhaps every possible variation of a universe that could be.

I don't believe in infinity . Could anyone ever prove to me that infinity exists?

I understand theoretically it exists. Add a number to a high number.

In practice the adding is by a material object and that object has a finite life span .

So the only thing I'm personally unsure of is the do I exist?

God. No.
Free will. No.
I. Maybe.
The universe. Yes.

I wonder if I've missed any out . Perhaps things like truth and knowledge and beauty are things I can consider about when I look at do I exist.

If it's true there is no I then we'd be talking about objective knowledge , beauty and truth .

I guess it's certain that a type of knowledge exists .

I know it's not my lucky night for instance tonight . Beauty exists . I mean Brad Pitt wouldn't be short of dates using tinder . Truth? I believe so. I think that if four people surround a car each may see a different thing but the car is there .

Things mightn't be so straight forward though on a quantum level . Hawking talked about the observer affecting the experience of the particle .

Still for me at least, however that particle was experienced the truth is that it did what it did .

You only exist because we read you.Now if we stopped reading you your life will end.

Ha ha. No ! If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it , it makes a vibration though not a sound !

Does causality exist ? That's a big one. Sure it obviously does on a macroscopic level. Quantum level?

Hawking talked about if a particle is sent between two points it goes to a destination through every possible pathway . Still it went from a to b!

I have a feeling the causality existence question is a yes and no answer . Yes because one thing leads to another but no because the observer does affect the events occurring .

Still

But what is the observer?

We know , or I do , that there is no free will.

That means that this consciousness belongs to nature . To the universe.

You know it's silly. People get so hung up about death and that's natural because of the survival instinct but the truth is we don't own life. We don't own consciousness .

So what are we? What's left? What is I ?

""the observer does affect the events occurring .""

 

If there is no observer things start to stop as if it never happened.

 

The observer is the key factor. 

Well I is nature no? Without the free will delusion what else could I be? Once you drop the idea of free will everything merges doesn't it ?

Like imagining there was an island but now seeing all there is is the sea.

All there is is nature. There is no I .

So next what's nature? Let's recap though what we've learned. Assuming you agree of course . Well why wouldn't you? I am right after all. Correct don't you know?

Right gerbeck. That's interesting. But taking as fact which I hope you will for the purpose of our discussion that free will doesn't exist then consciousness , the observer, is a part of nature. And why wouldn't that be the case?

So to be established. What is nature? I'm just going to recap though.

God. No.
Free will. No.
I. No.
All those three nature is the answer that is the correct alternative.

Finally the material world. Yes.

Why? Because the answer is once again nature.

So we've ruled out you and I what isn't the truth. Now to find out what is the truth.

What is nature?

Gerbeck or anyone else if you could explain to a dummy like me what hawking meant by the observer affecting the particles movement though the particle travelled every possible pathway I'd be grateful. Also if anyone can show me I'm wrong about infinity being a false concept .

I tell you what else is strange by the way .

These scientists talk about time doesn't exist at the point of singularity. So how in the world did things change?!