What if the Theory of Evolution is Right? (Part I)

Sort:
_Number_6
hapless_fool wrote:

Nitpicking on grammar and spelling is the sign of someone who feels he is losing an argument. I'm waiting for the inevitable "he calls himself a Christian and he said damn and wtf". When that comes I'll sleep soundly.

Here is the exact quote from the book, extended as much as copywright will allow:

“The chimpanzee and the human share about 99.5 per cent of their evolutionary history, yet most human thinkers regard the chimp as a malformed, irrelevant oddity while seeing themselves as stepping-stones to the Almighty. To an evolutionist this cannot be so. There exists no objective basis on which to elevate one species above another. Chimp and human, lizard and fungus, we have all evolved over some three billion years by a process known as natural selection”

Excerpt From: Dawkins, Richard. “The Selfish Gene: 30th Anniversary edition.” Oxford University Press, 2006. iBooks.

 

 

Quotes with sources does not violate copy write law.

I think what you are saying is the utilization of science to attack religion is tedious and that the theory of evolution stands perfectly well on its own. 

I would agree. If the bulk of the text is as you have quoted I would burn the book before finishing it. 

From your quotes Dawkins appears to have fallen into the same trap as theists in using the absence of evidence of one discipline to support a completely separate and independent discipline.  As I said in another thread.  Not comparing apples to oranges but trying to turn apples into oranges.

Pointless.  Science stands on Science.  Theology on theology.  The merits of either should be judged accordingly.

pawnwhacker

   I had a similar objection to the book (posted somewhere above). When he started discussing religious memes, I thought that he had gotten off track and out of the domain of science.

   And if he had intended the book as a textbook for the layman, it could have benefitted from illustrations. That and the entire work could have been improved if a technical editor had been involved.

   Another serious criticism is that although the book is in its 30th edition, it could have been brought up to date. Instead, he chose to write responses to his critics at the back of the book. A bit "cheesy" if you ask me. I think that he would have been better off just leaving the original book stand.

   Too, the book is a bit dreadful to read from cover-to-cover, unless the layman reader is ambitious and has tenacity.

   As far as the technical aspects and the credibility of same, I believe that Elroch can address those matters far better than I.

   One thing that is certain, in my opinion, is that the masses are not going to throw out their holy handbooks in favor of this book. This is a given, especially considering that the book was first published in 1976.

   btw...I bought my first slide rule in 1957. I bought my first four-function calculator around 1970. Nowadays, I have several computers, note pads and smart phones. Evolution at its finest!! Smile

Elroch
hapless_fool wrote:

Nitpicking on grammar and spelling is the sign of someone who feels he is losing an argument.

No. It is a sign of the precision required to be a scientist. There is no room for sloppiness, especially when it led you to completely misunderstand your second misquote, for example. Have you corrected your error yet?

I'm waiting for the inevitable "he calls himself a Christian and he said damn and wtf". When that comes I'll sleep soundly.

Here is the exact quote from the book, extended as much as copywright will allow:

“The chimpanzee and the human share about 99.5 per cent of their evolutionary history, yet most human thinkers regard the chimp as a malformed, irrelevant oddity while seeing themselves as stepping-stones to the Almighty. To an evolutionist this cannot be so. There exists no objective basis on which to elevate one species above another. Chimp and human, lizard and fungus, we have all evolved over some three billion years by a process known as natural selection”

Excerpt From: Dawkins, Richard. “The Selfish Gene: 30th Anniversary edition.” Oxford University Press, 2006. iBooks.

That is OBJECTIVELY correct, but in a rather dull way. Science does not provide a unique quality measure. It does not say humans are better than lions or blue whales or any species. That is not what science does. It also does not provide an objective scale for ranking pop tunes.

[On the (non-scientific) philosophical point, you can choose to believe that the worst child torturer (say) is superior to every non-human on planet Earth, but my qualititative judgement would be different.]

This material may be protected by copyright.

Check out this book on the iBooks Store: https://itun.es/us/kNkmU.l

I reviewed about 2000 posts ago about how this represents a classic enthymeme. No one took issue with it, because they didn't understand the concept, but that's not my fault.

For about the tenth time Elroch, no one has the power to modify direct quotes from Dawkins out of thin air. I'm pulling quotes and representing concepts right from the very pages of the Holy One. If they seem goofy, it is only because they are not being filtered by the adoring eyes of his devotees.

You are knowingly being untruthful. You used YOUR OWN WORDS in post #1029 and made several crucial errors which I identified by searching first for your text, then for what it is clear you misquoted. Don't you realise I have the ebook myself? It is possible that you THOUGHT you were representing Dawkins's "concept" in the second quote, but you made an error: I was more careful.

The Replicator? The molecule that self-assembled and self-replicated, free of Darwinian constraints because it was not a living organism (although that is not what Dawkins said; I'm calling your bluff on that one),

Revision of today's lesson: this is a SEMANTIC point. There is no disagreement on scientific fact. But what sort of nonsense is "free from Darwinian constraints"? Molecules that replicate are subject to exactly the same kind of natural selection as genes in an organism, and could be modelled statistically using the same software.

giving rise to ape and man, lizard and fungi...and you are a cold-blooded objective scientist?

I have clear views on abiogenesis, but this (excellent) hypothesis has a completely different scientific status to the Theory of Evolution from a common ancestor, which has been established beyond all scientific doubt through the scientific method. That is why I choose to keep discussions of them separate, although desperate creationists are always keen to wander off topic.

chess_grenade

The plot thickens.

pawnwhacker

   I'm trying to stay out of this one (a wise decision on my part...lol), but the idea that a monkey, a human, a bumble bee all have the same net sum value in the universe is also my view.

   This perspective, scientific or otherwise, is vexing (extremely so) to the theist. On this point alone, the theist is not only unwilling but also incapable of having any flexibility whatsoever.

einstein99

Devil😈lution!

gopher_the_throat

pawnwhacker - well, those nasty theists as opposed to those open minded pliable evolutionists.

pawnwhacker

   I detect facetiousness (Smile). Now, I don't know about "those" open-minded, pliable evolutionists. But I do know about me.

   I can be influenced by facts; I cannot be influenced by faith. Theists are built exactly the opposite (assbackwards?...lol).

   The theist, though, can't prove their faith (otherwise it would be called "proof" instead of "faith"). So, on threads such as this, they attempt to disprove science.

   If they could disprove the science (which they can't), then I would wholeheartedly agree with them on this matter. No question about it. I would presume that Elroch/Dawkins would do likewise. (Just an educated guess on my part.)

   The trick would now be to sell me (or them) on any one of thousands of religions, but that would require an epiphany of faith. Since they and I do not have the faith meme, we would be at net sum 0.

   That's it in a nutshell.

hapless_fool

Elroch, I read your red font pleonastics. You are wrong, dead so, and you are banking that people will "take sides" and not bother to recall my posts or even to read the passages from Dawkins.

To anyone who really cares: you can download Dawkins' book from iBooks for $12.99 USD, probably cheaper on Kindle. Elroch doesn't want you to read it, although he's a devout atheist. I want you to read it, and I am a non-atheist (to modify one of Mildwalk's neologisms). Draw your own conclusions.

gopher_the_throat

 pawhwhacher - I don't think you have been reading what I have been writing about on this forum. I am a theist but I don't fit your description. I am not trying to disprove science. I accept a great deal of science. Science like life had to evolve. Religon provided a starting point for many sciences. Astronomy developed from astrology, chemistry from alchemy and cosmology from creation naratives. Some theists persist in traditional ways. Some have become quite modern, e.g. - Pope Francis. Please do not lump us all into one big pile. Just for the record, here is part of what I wrote several days ago:

 

Let us begin with what we seem to be able to agree on: The traditional religious view of the age of the human race, the age of the Earth and the universe vastly understates the true lapse of time involved in past, present and future creation events. There is substantial genomic and fossil evidence to indicate that at the level species, genus and beyond there were ancestral forms that predated the modern equivalents. For the purpose of teaching the relationships between past and extant species the Darwinian model is well suited to the needs of the classroom. It tells us that primates are more closely related to bats than they are to rodents. Rodents are more closely related to lizards than they are to fish. Fish are more closely related to mushrooms than they are to plants. And so on. It also tells us that much of the aforementioned diversity is the result of adaptation to environmental changes and competitive advantages and that DNA is the mechanism by which a successful adaptation is preserved.

More recently I have been asking - just how do you distinguish the difference between an act of natural selection and an act of artificial (intelligent) selection?

Danny_BLT

it is. 100%

pawnwhacker

   gopher, I beg to differ with you. 

   The Bible says that the Earth was created about 6,000 years ago. Science says about 4.5 billion years ago. The Bible says that man did NOT evolve but was made whole.

   I could make this a lengthy post but just those things that I mentioned means that you and other like-minded theists are NOT open to science. What I would call you is a revisionist rather than a fundamentalist. You are a denialist of science. You are an enabler and co-dependent of mystical nonsense.

   You insult me when you tell me that I haven't read what you've said. You are welcome to your "religion and science are compatible" views. I think they are not. One is right; one is wrong.

   Now if you were to ask me what was the "first cause", I would tell you that I don't know but I do know it wasn't Jesus. You have absolutely no doubt what the first cause was. Do you? Or am I putting words in your mouth?

Edit: And yes, I must (in general) lump all theists into one category. The category is: "God Yes", "God Yes with Quasi Science" or God Yes to Hell with Science".

   The one common denominator is "God Yes". You are just pussyfooting around the core belief when you pretend to incorporate science. You know very well that religion has embarrassed itself in the past (and present) when it has gone against science.

   Nowadays, some theistic revisionists want to link talking snakes and holy water with atom smashers. Bah! Delusional at best; liars at worst...but always foolish.

hapless_fool

At gopher - one of the things that unite non-theists is their profound lack of curiosity regarding the rich diversity of religious tradition. I'm rereading an essay titled Ad Litteram, the thesis of which is that the ancients were surprisingly not literal (by fundamentalist standards). One quote that I found a bit surprising:

"It seems clear that Gregory of Nyssa did not believe that God ever truly slew the firstborn of Egypt...Augustine accorded the story of the Garden of Eden a degree of historical substantiality that Origen explicitly denied it...The most effulgently beautiful work of patristic literal exegesis is Augustine's "De Genesi Ad Litteram" but scarcely any modern reader could distinguish much of it from an exercise in allegory..."

One of the nontheists, by virtue of his Jesuit education, will recognize the names above and realize that all of them were 6th Century and earlier, yet every one of them will rush to claim that theists who value both the ancient writings and modern science are all accomodationists.

Really, Augustine explicitly rejected the notion of six literal days of creation. I doubt more than a dozen atheists in the universe realize that. It's so much easier to attack religious folk of their own conjuring.

I have no idea if gopher or Ghostess are "orthodox Christians" or not, and it really doesn't matter. I wouldn't care if they were non-theists, or even anti-nontheists. They don't pigeon-hole people and don't expect to be treated that way, either.

hapless_fool

Oh by the way, I wrote my last post without knowledge of Sillius Soddus' stupid rant. Prescience? Perhaps.

_Number_6
gopher_the_throat wrote:

More recently I have been asking - just how do you distinguish the difference between an act of natural selection and an act of artificial (intelligent) selection?


Once you have established a mechanism for selection it is easy to distinguish the difference.

Natural selection looks like this:

 

 

 

Intelligent selection looks like this:

_Number_6
hapless_fool wrote:

At gopher - one of the things that unite non-theists is their profound lack of curiosity regarding the rich diversity of religious tradition.

 

I am a atheist and I would consider myself both curious and appreciative of religious traditions.  I was married in a traditional Anglican service, I have visited St Peter's and heard more Muslim calls to prayer than I can count.  I have read the Bible, Homer and Milton and studied Indian History.  I've stood on the walls of Alhambra, eaten bagels on the Sabbath and nearly been poisoned by Muslims even though I only ate with my right hand.

What I don't confuse my curiosity with is science.  Less, maybe the poisoned part and micro-biology.  I will happily go toe to toe on religious curiosity with any theist any day.  A sweat lodge is still on the list of things to do though.

gopher_the_throat

It looks to me like the coyote was more intelligently selected than the pekinese.

hapless_fool
_Number_6 wrote:
hapless_fool wrote:

At gopher - one of the things that unite non-theists is their profound lack of curiosity regarding the rich diversity of religious tradition.

 

I am a atheist and I would consider myself both curious and appreciative of religious traditions.  I was married in a traditional Anglican service, I have visited St Peter's and heard more Muslim calls to prayer than I can count.  I have read the Bible, Homer and Milton and studied Indian History.  I've stood on the walls of Alhambra, eaten bagels on the Sabbath and nearly been poisoned by Muslims even though I only ate with my right hand.

What I don't confuse my curiosity with is science.  Less, maybe the poisoned part and micro-biology.  I will happily go toe to toe on religious curiosity with any theist any day.  A sweat lodge is still on the list of things to do though.

I applaud you, do let me be clear on that. I'm listening to an interview of some British gent who goes to church without fail, deeply loves his fellowship with the believers, treasures the teaching of Jesus, and...is a staunch atheist. There are aspects of the faith that he cannot intellectually accept. When he describes them, I think most Christians have trouble with them at times as well.

But that's a far cry from the antireligious bigotry, based on profound ignorance and deep antipathy to Christianity, that passes for the scientism of Dawkins and his devotees. 

gopher_the_throat

Mr. pawnwhacker - Once again we come to the slings and arrows routine. However I would add: There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

 The Bible says that the Earth was created about 6,000 years ago. No, the bible does not say that. It says the universe, earth and life were created in 6 stages.

 You insult me when you tell me that I haven't read what you've said. You are welcome to your "religion and science are compatible" views. I think they are not. One is right; one is wrong. Ok, maybe I should have said you have read but don't understand what I said. No insult intended. You may be a bit thin skinned.

 

  Now if you were to ask me what was the "first cause", I would tell you that I don't know but I do know it wasn't Jesus. You have absolutely no doubt what the first cause was. Do you? Or am I putting words in your mouth? Yes, you are putting words in my mouth. I do not believe Jesus was the first cause and I personally have never met with the first cause or any of his messengers if there are any. No more than my dog understands who I am or how and why I put food in his bowl every day.

 

 Nowadays, some theistic revisionists want to link talking snakes and holy water with atom smashers. I have no desire to link talking snakes and holy water with atom smashers. What ever gave you that idea?

pawnwhacker

gopher: 

The Bible says that the Earth was created about 6,000 years ago. No, the bible does not say that. It says the universe, earth and life were created in 6 stages.

   Yes, the Bible DOES say that. Count the age of Adam, his son, his son's son, all the way to Jesus. Look in Luke and you will find Jesus's genealogy going back to Adam.  Even if many of the patriarchs lived to 800 years as specified in the Bible (ridiculous in itself), we get the prox. 6,000 figure. This comes from the Bible itself. If you have been unaware of this, then that is your ignorance

   Bishop Ussher did the math for you:

Q: What was Bishop James Ussher'scontribution?

A: He calculated the age of the Earth in accordance to the Bible. He concluded that God created earth on October 22, 4004 B.C


re: http://www.ask.com/wiki/James_Ussher?o=2801&qsrc=999&ad=doubleDown&an=apn&ap=ask.com




This forum topic has been locked