Why are over-the-board time controls so long??

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Avatar of Optimissed
CooloutAC wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

Just to answer your poor argument regarding differences between fast and slow play, I used to play a lot of blitz and rapid-play. I played rapid-play to try to win tournaments but I much preferred 5 minute chess and could put together a good game at that time and could hold my own with people who were 200 BCF, which is the obsolete English grading system and which would be equivalent to roughly (200 + 10)  x 8 +600 or 2250 FIDE to be on the safe side. They would beat me at slow-play but not at 5 mins blitz. Therefore I should be more aware than you are regarding the nature of fast chess. I don't consider bullet to be chess, incidentally. It's just a bit of fun which became popular due to GMs and IMs showing off but since there's no time to think, whereas in 5 mins blitz there is thinking time, it's all about moving pieces and pressing the clock fast. It's also just about impossible to play bullet without breaking all the rules of chess, so it isn't chess.

If bullet was nothing but playing fast,  there would not be such a wide skill gap because of all the super gm's playing it and they would not be winning so consistently.    The numbers and statistics on these websites simply prove you wrong. >>

That's a decent argument, so thanks for that. I wouldn't say it proves me wrong, though. The superGMs you talk about have thousands of positional patterns embedded in their memories and that's why they win and that's how they win. They just play patterns they are familiar with and divert it into a different pattern and then maybe kill the pattern if they think they can get away with it. If everyone's just playing from memory according to their abilities, it's still down to how fast they can move the pieces. So your decent argument is actually insufficient. Don't forget, GMs are playing GMs and so on. It doesn't mean there's much skill involved, compared with speed.

 

They are playing from experience so you could argue experience matters even more in Blitz.  Just like Ziryab's Magnus quote as to where his fast intution comes from.   When you say they divert patterns into different patterns thats called creativity which is more prevalent in blitz as I have also been saying.   That is deviating from the most "accurate" lines of theory which imo make the game more dynamic.     And even though everyone is playing from memory or "past experience"  how fast they move the pieces being part of the game does not negate the fact their experience and visual skills still play a large role and as you admit is the difference between the super gm's and the average player.  How fast they are moving the pieces is a much lower  learning curve and is a small factor in the large skill gap between players. At least when it comes to 3 and 5 min blitz imo.     Many of the Super Gm's would agree with you about Hyper Bullet though.

It's very low-level creativity. A bit like a spider that can't stop building a web and if you give it LSD, it makes crazy patterns. Or a kid building a pile of stones (very fast) only to knock it over.

Anyhow, thanks for taking the time and trouble and making the effort to answer me and to take on board some of my comments. I appreciate it, although I suspect we may be going nowhere fast. See you around and try not to drive everyone mad! happy.png

Avatar of mpaetz
CooloutAC wrote:


Like one of the posters said it all comes down to personal preference.  If you prefer a game with the least amount of blunders then so be it.   But that doesn't make it a higher "quality" then blitz cause blitz has more blunders.   I simply prefer the more dynamic and competitive gameplay.  With more games and more chances and feel its more sporting.

     Of course there is a correlation between accuracy and quality. Quickly adding up figures in you head will be less accurate than using a calculator and double-checking that you've entered every figure correctly. If you are making up a bill, figuring how much material to buy for some building project, balancing your checkbook, the more accurate number is better. Slapping some planks together and fastening them with whatever you can do in a hurry won't make a boat equal in quality with one built correctly, leaving you underwater. Rushing through a chemical process without accurate measurements can result in complete failure.

     Similarly, trying to produce the highest-quality chess game of which you are capable requires you to play as accurately as possible.

Avatar of Optimissed
CooloutAC wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

Just to answer your poor argument regarding differences between fast and slow play, I used to play a lot of blitz and rapid-play. I played rapid-play to try to win tournaments but I much preferred 5 minute chess and could put together a good game at that time and could hold my own with people who were 200 BCF, which is the obsolete English grading system and which would be equivalent to roughly (200 + 10)  x 8 +600 or 2250 FIDE to be on the safe side. They would beat me at slow-play but not at 5 mins blitz. Therefore I should be more aware than you are regarding the nature of fast chess. I don't consider bullet to be chess, incidentally. It's just a bit of fun which became popular due to GMs and IMs showing off but since there's no time to think, whereas in 5 mins blitz there is thinking time, it's all about moving pieces and pressing the clock fast. It's also just about impossible to play bullet without breaking all the rules of chess, so it isn't chess.

If bullet was nothing but playing fast,  there would not be such a wide skill gap because of all the super gm's playing it and they would not be winning so consistently.    The numbers and statistics on these websites simply prove you wrong. >>

That's a decent argument, so thanks for that. I wouldn't say it proves me wrong, though. The superGMs you talk about have thousands of positional patterns embedded in their memories and that's why they win and that's how they win. They just play patterns they are familiar with and divert it into a different pattern and then maybe kill the pattern if they think they can get away with it. If everyone's just playing from memory according to their abilities, it's still down to how fast they can move the pieces. So your decent argument is actually insufficient. Don't forget, GMs are playing GMs and so on. It doesn't mean there's much skill involved, compared with speed.

 

They are playing from experience so you could argue experience matters even more in Blitz.  Just like Ziryab's Magnus quote as to where his fast intution comes from.   When you say they divert patterns into different patterns thats called creativity which is more prevalent in blitz as I have also been saying.   That is deviating from the most "accurate" lines of theory which imo make the game more dynamic.     And even though everyone is playing from memory or "past experience"  how fast they move the pieces being part of the game does not negate the fact their experience and visual skills still play a large role and as you admit is the difference between the super gm's and the average player.  How fast they are moving the pieces is a much lower  learning curve and is a small factor in the large skill gap between players. At least when it comes to 3 and 5 min blitz imo.     Many of the Super Gm's would agree with you about Hyper Bullet though.

It's very low-level creativity. A bit like a spider that can't stop building a web and if you give it LSD, it makes crazy patterns. Or a kid building a pile of stones (very fast) only to knock it over.

Anyhow, thanks for taking the time and trouble and making the effort to answer me and to take on board some of my comments. I appreciate it, although I suspect we may be going nowhere fast. See you around and try not to drive everyone mad!

Sort of feel like your comment is very demeaning.  Are you going to be mad if I call it shameful.  I'm not even sure it deserves a response.  Creativity is Creativity.  More of it means more creativeness,  period.    I have no idea what you are referring to with a spider on LSD but it sounds subjective or as if you are trying to claim blitz players move randomly again.  Its underhandedly insulting.  And its  Contradicting your previous statement when I thought you were starting to come to your senses.

Well you know how this ends.  Thanks for at first trying to debate seriously anyways.  I assure you its nothing personal with me.

Like some others here, you have a tendency to under-estimate those you disagree with. But there will be some here who are intellectually more able than people you've previously been used to and sometimes they may like to play a little. But regarding me, I was an amateur bookdealer, so I learned to judge a book by its cover and by the pictures in it.

Avatar of PerpetualPatzer123
CooloutAC wrote:

Like you ignorantly proved yourself,  the quality of music and food is preference.  What you consider high quality in chess is no different,  its your personal preference and a differeing opinion from others. 

Chess is objective, unlike music and food. You can’t exactly play chess on emotion. 

Avatar of Optimissed

Music and food are also objective. So are the fine arts. That is, it's possible to identify factors that stimulate a sense of beauty or wonder. I would say that food shouldn't contain garlic but a more objective approach is that ingredients should complement each other and should be cooked in such a way that makes them healthy and enjoyable. Bad cooks overuse spices or salt and don't know how to make ingredients combine in an enjoyable way. Although a single combination of ingredients might offer several ways to bring out their best, an unskilled cook will overcook, undercook and allow subtle flavours to be lost under an overwhelming blanket of garlic, sugar, chilli, cooking oil, whatever. Anyone can do that and anyone can think such cooking to be good, especially if they aren't used to better. Same with music, same with wine and malt whisky. People appreciate things according to their abilities. I would probably get bored quickly in an opera, unless it was something really special. The qualities of average performances would be lost on me and my sense of boredom. Same with heavy metal music or rap. I suppose they're like the musical equivalent of overuse of garlic.

Avatar of rychessmaster1
Well said
Avatar of PerpetualPatzer123
Optimissed wrote:

Music and food are also objective. So are the fine arts. That is, it's possible to identify factors that stimulate a sense of beauty or wonder. I would say that food shouldn't contain garlic but a more objective approach is that ingredients should complement each other and should be cooked in such a way that makes them healthy and enjoyable. Bad cooks overuse spices or salt and don't know how to make ingredients combine in an enjoyable way. Although a single combination of ingredients might offer several ways to bring out their best, an unskilled cook will overcook, undercook and allow subtle flavours to be lost under an overwhelming blanket of garlic, sugar, chilli, cooking oil, whatever. Anyone can do that and anyone can think such cooking to be good, especially if they aren't used to better. Same with music, same with wine and malt whisky. People appreciate things according to their abilities. I would probably get bored quickly in an opera, unless it was something really special. The qualities of average performances would be lost on me and my sense of boredom. Same with heavy metal music or rap. I suppose they're like the musical equivalent of overuse of garlic.

Ah, that makes sense. Well said. 

Avatar of fissionfowl
Optimissed wrote:

Music and food are also objective. So are the fine arts. That is, it's possible to identify factors that stimulate a sense of beauty or wonder. I would say that food shouldn't contain garlic but a more objective approach is that ingredients should complement each other and should be cooked in such a way that makes them healthy and enjoyable. Bad cooks overuse spices or salt and don't know how to make ingredients combine in an enjoyable way. Although a single combination of ingredients might offer several ways to bring out their best, an unskilled cook will overcook, undercook and allow subtle flavours to be lost under an overwhelming blanket of garlic, sugar, chilli, cooking oil, whatever. Anyone can do that and anyone can think such cooking to be good, especially if they aren't used to better. Same with music, same with wine and malt whisky. People appreciate things according to their abilities. I would probably get bored quickly in an opera, unless it was something really special. The qualities of average performances would be lost on me and my sense of boredom. Same with heavy metal music or rap. I suppose they're like the musical equivalent of overuse of garlic.

The arbiter of objectively good music being yourself of course.

Avatar of Optimissed
TheOldPatzer wrote:

I can't accept this statement:

" If you prefer a game with the least amount of blunders then so be it.   But that doesn't make it a higher "quality" then blitz cause blitz has more blunders. ">>>>


That's true, because it contains four atrocious, grammatical errors: so many that it becomes unintelligible.

Avatar of Optimissed
fissionfowl wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

Music and food are also objective. So are the fine arts. That is, it's possible to identify factors that stimulate a sense of beauty or wonder. I would say that food shouldn't contain garlic but a more objective approach is that ingredients should complement each other and should be cooked in such a way that makes them healthy and enjoyable. Bad cooks overuse spices or salt and don't know how to make ingredients combine in an enjoyable way. Although a single combination of ingredients might offer several ways to bring out their best, an unskilled cook will overcook, undercook and allow subtle flavours to be lost under an overwhelming blanket of garlic, sugar, chilli, cooking oil, whatever. Anyone can do that and anyone can think such cooking to be good, especially if they aren't used to better. Same with music, same with wine and malt whisky. People appreciate things according to their abilities. I would probably get bored quickly in an opera, unless it was something really special. The qualities of average performances would be lost on me and my sense of boredom. Same with heavy metal music or rap. I suppose they're like the musical equivalent of overuse of garlic.

The arbiter of objectively good music being yourself of course.

No.

Avatar of Optimissed
Optimissed wrote:
fissionfowl wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

Music and food are also objective. So are the fine arts. That is, it's possible to identify factors that stimulate a sense of beauty or wonder. I would say that food shouldn't contain garlic but a more objective approach is that ingredients should complement each other and should be cooked in such a way that makes them healthy and enjoyable. Bad cooks overuse spices or salt and don't know how to make ingredients combine in an enjoyable way. Although a single combination of ingredients might offer several ways to bring out their best, an unskilled cook will overcook, undercook and allow subtle flavours to be lost under an overwhelming blanket of garlic, sugar, chilli, cooking oil, whatever. Anyone can do that and anyone can think such cooking to be good, especially if they aren't used to better. Same with music, same with wine and malt whisky. People appreciate things according to their abilities. I would probably get bored quickly in an opera, unless it was something really special. The qualities of average performances would be lost on me and my sense of boredom. Same with heavy metal music or rap. I suppose they're like the musical equivalent of overuse of garlic.

The arbiter of objectively good music being yourself of course.

 

No.
Perhaps you'd like to discuss "objective" quality in music?

Avatar of fissionfowl
Optimissed wrote:

No.

Well it sounds like it. How else would you come to the conclusion that rap and metal are 'objectively' bad?

Avatar of Optimissed

My comment was more ambiguous than that. I was thinking about it slightly, since your comment. I thought that music is harder to "objectify" than something like cooking. Incidentally, I don't consider "objective" to imply an absolute or absolute values, because there are no such thing and also, knowledge is highly confirmed and justified belief but that doesn't always mean it can be true because ideas that are held as knowledge are sometimes found to be wrong and we don't have the gift of 100% hindsight and nor can we see everything that happens in the universe. So, objectivity is merely an attempt to be objective, which means that we try to draw in as many factors as possible without expecting to get them all.

But one factor of good music is, perhaps, skill in playing instruments and singing. Is that fair?

Avatar of PerpetualPatzer123

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

Avatar of Optimissed

I remember when I was in India, some of them were chanting "Khalistan" on a train and being very aggressive. Normally they're alright.

Avatar of PerpetualPatzer123
Optimissed wrote:

I remember when I was in India, some of them were chanting "Khalistan" on a train and being very aggressive. Normally they're alright.

I said Sith, not Sikh.

Avatar of fissionfowl
Optimissed wrote:

My comment was more ambiguous than that. I was thinking about it slightly, since your comment. I thought that music is harder to "objectify" than something like cooking. Incidentally, I don't consider "objective" to imply an absolute or absolute values, because there are no such thing and also, knowledge is highly confirmed and justified belief but that doesn't always mean it can be true because ideas that are held as knowledge are sometimes found to be wrong and we don't have the gift of 100% hindsight and nor can we see everything that happens in the universe. So, objectivity is merely an attempt to be objective, which means that we try to draw in as many factors as possible without expecting to get them all.
Ok that's more reasonable sounding. Personally I think while there is a large objective aspect in music, that's not everything. We are drawn to music that fits our personality. To hold a piece of music as being theoretically and completely objectively 'good' is to say that certain personality types are objectively superior people, which is obviously not true.
But one factor of good music is, perhaps, skill in playing instruments and singing. Is that fair?

I don't agree. If that were the case then a band like Joy division would be making objectively bad music. Or the whole concept of electronic music could be thrown out.

Avatar of Zycirline

As an electronic music person, I’m not sure how to feel about that

Avatar of Optimissed

I remember a Sikh trying to get on a train when I was trying to get off and he was being pushed by about 10 people behind him and had hold of the rails on either side of the coach door and wouldn't let me off even though I was being pushed by about four or five others trying to get off too. He was standing on the first step of the coach with his arms either side of me hanging onto the rails and in the end I karate chopped each arm in turn. He let go and was probably trampled underfoot.

Avatar of Optimissed
AunTheKnight wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

I remember when I was in India, some of them were chanting "Khalistan" on a train and being very aggressive. Normally they're alright.

I said Sith, not Sikh.

Oh, what's a Sith???