You want the truth? You can't handle the truth

I think there is good and bad. So for example it is wrong for an adult to abuse a child or animal.

Within that there may be some grey areas, and some mitigation, but I say it is wrong.

I definitely understand what you're asking. There might be no more reason for existence to look like this than for existence to look any other way. As for the nature of the self--of what an individual is--I have no idea. I have a fun quasi-theory, but empirically I don't know of any way to know. My whole argument is that how 'real' it is is a fun and interesting question with an inconsequential answer.

I agree. Basically, I liken morality to newspaper. You know how images in newspaper show a variety of shades of gray, but when you look closely you still ultimately see nothing but black spots and white spots? That's how I view morality. You can end up with issues of various shades of gray (Is it right to kill?) that are nonetheless built on and determined by black and white principles.

I'm going to read properly and respond properly when I've more free time.

I'd like to address Carla's point right now though.

Sure right and wrong seem to exist.

It's obvious right?


Try seeing it this way.

A river burst its bank and a child dies.

Was that wrong? Is the river evil? Or ugly?

Do those terms make any sense?

The reality is that we human beings are every much a part of nature as that river.

All are thoughts and feelings and behaviours a part of nature too.

You might think but a person chooses to murder a child, of course that's different.

Until and unless you understand that all a person really is is natural materials being evolved naturally by natural forces you won't be able to accept that there is no difference essentially between a river and a human being.

You have to be able to relinquish the ego. Lose the idea of self.

It's not some glorious revelation. But it does bring a peace to the existential crisis.

What am I?

All there is is nature.

Patients suffering from grandiose delusions wrongly hold themselves at an extraordinarily high status in their mind.

Grandiose delusions (GD) or delusions of grandeur are a subtype of delusion that occur in patients suffering from a wide range of psychiatric diseases, including two-thirds of patients in manic state of bipolar disorder, half of those with schizophrenia, patients with the grandiose subtype of delusional disorder, and a substantial portion of those with substance abuse disorders.[1][2] GDs are characterized by fantastical beliefs that one is famous, omnipotent, wealthy, or otherwise very powerful. The delusions are generally fantastic and typically have a religious, science fictional, or supernatural theme. There is a relative lack of research into GD, in contrast to persecutory delusions and auditory hallucinations. About 10% of healthy people experience grandiose thoughts but do not meet full criteria for a diagnosis of GD.[2

The truth?

The truth, sadly, is we are witnessing the steady progression of Tom's mental illness. He refuses all help, consequently he will eventually reach a mental breakdown. We are all seeing this take place, what can be done?

Very sadly, it appears to be nothing.

Wow blarg at 37. That's really creative and imaginative. You've got me thinking now.

I'm going to give you my best answer but before I do I'll say this.

I'm working from oldest first by the way.

I basically accept your point. At least in my opinion the view that most people have of themselves and the world, the I concept is a delusion.

It's entirely possible that the concept of nature is also a delusion.

I suppose it's possible that absolutely nothing is real!

Or perhaps something is but we have absolutely no concept of what that something is.

Anyway accepting your point may be true I'll now talk about what I hold to be the actual truth.

Hi md I'm working oldest to newest. I'd like to engage anyone and everyone that genuinely addresses my proposition

Well I'm not someone that denies reality. I mean physical reality.

I recall a tale referring to this type of wondering where a philosopher kicks his foot on a rock and experiencing pain says I refute it thus!

Pain sure brings a person back down to earth.

So for me at least the matter we see around us actually is there whether we would like it to be or not.

I actually think a sunset is a really good example of what I'm talking about.

I'll explore that in this context.

So think of a sunset. You have the sky and the sky is displaying different colours. That's it.

It's not in itself any more than that. It has no intrinsic value or properties.

Other than its physical properties such as colour or texture and such like.

That's real.

Here's what's not real.

It is neither good nor evil, beautiful or ugly.

It just is.

We human beings project properties on to things.

Sure those things exist but all they are is nature. That's it.

They've came to be through natural evolution and even now they are naturally evolving.

And that's every bit as true for a person and is it for a sunset.

There is nothing to address tom. You are delusional, suffering from grandiose ideas of your new found "knowledge".

On a bike that's a very sensible question. Why this experience then?

A few things in response.

Firstly matter exists. So we can agree that the sky is there. There is a sunset. Nature does exist. Natural materials.

Look at the idea of a sunset being beautiful.

What is it really? It's just a bunch of patterns and that's it.

Why the oh so beautiful then?

On a bike imagine for a moment you are one of these prairie voles that's looking at the sunset.

One of the type that has no chemicals or chemical receptors to love.

What would you see?

You'd see the reality. The sky is a bunch of colours making a pattern. That's it. That's the truth and nothing more.

So it's this love experience that distorts our view of what is. Makes us sentimental don't you know.

You could say well that's a good thing no?

Actually it's neither good nor bad. It's just what is.

That's a great question and needs more answering

I'm working back to front but that's an easy one.

Natural forces exist and those natural forces created natural materials.

Simple

I promise to properly address all the points made to me about this topic but I'll have to do it when I can.

I'm not seeking to be educated, I know the truth. I'm happy to wonder with you guys though

Standard behaviour is the delusion that only the patient "knows the truth". He feels obligated to inform the rest of society of his new found knowledge, as only he is capable of seeing reality. Toms reality is that he denies the self, denies the existance of what is observed. Thus enabling his mind to deny any responsibilty for his actions. He feels he can not be held accountable for his behaviour as he does not exist.

A bizarre psychosis.

tomtrytostay wrote:

I promise to properly address all the points made to me about this topic but I'll have to do it when I can. I'm not seeking to be educated, I know the truth. I'm happy to wonder with you guys though

Verification

Another behavioral pattern is the persistence of repeating the same "grand insight" many times over, as if those he's talking to never "got it". They must be constantly reminded, until they accept and agree with the delusional insight.

Okay why apart from the love experience do we see the world as we do?

Firstly we human beings tend to fill in the gaps in our understanding of nature with supernatural ideas.

People used to dance to the God of rain not so long ago and sacrifice their children to gain favour by ' the gods'.

Also given enough pressure people go a little crazy. Become paranoid.

Paranoia isn't only about seeing things as a malevolent detractor but also as a benevolent benefactor. There are two sides to it.

Then there is consciousness.

So for example we experience our selves as still. The earth clearly must be in a fixed position. Flat.

We've all seen those ideas that people had generations ago about how the world looked.

But actually our experience isn't reliable. We certainly are moving and very very fast too.

The earth is spinning and the galaxy expanding.

Consciousness of thought feeling and behaviour, of physical flesh creates this oh here I am, that along with the reflection that we see.

I think that's a part of evolution too. To view ourselves as existing enables us to experience the need to survive.

Just to be clear though nature doesn't design intelligently.

Except the life forms that are so intelligent they can genetically engineer.

It's still just nature doing its thing but it's doing it with awareness.

Which is amazing but still just nature.

I suppose though it's true that the thoughts and feelings and behaviour and flesh are all part of the same individual part of nature and we are a part of nature that's intelligent enough to realise that.

But it's still not an I!

Just a part of an integral whole.

Causality at work

And the intelligent beings with the capacity to love would genetically engineer in a different way than the intelligent beings without.

Why is there not more sci fi about those type of people?

The Spock type

By the way I don't actually accept that I bringing anything new.

I'm just repeating what Darwin Einstein and Hawking have all seen.

Free will is an illusion. All that's real is nature.

Please cite any quote they said any such thing. This will keep you busy for a few years, searching for something that does not exist.