Automatically remove cheaters from tournament standings

Hi all,

I've been playing in quite a few tournaments lately. Sometimes there is a cheater taking part in a tournament and he gets caught and banned during the tournament.

However, the cheater's results still count for the tournament. I don't think this is fair to players who already completed their games against the cheater, as they have probably lost their games, while other players get free points.

Therefore, my suggestion would be to automatically remove banned cheaters from the standings or to forfeit all the cheater's games, including his completed ones.

I'm not talking about restoring rating points, as I understand this would probably be practically impossible. My suggestion is only about the tournament standings. 

I'm too new to the world of online tournaments to understand quite how everything works, but this seems to make sense to me.

My rating went over 2000 in a previous tournament because I was awarded games against people who were cheating. I entered the one I am currently in because I was pretty sure I was going to drop below the coveted 2000 mark, and what better tournament to do it in playing against some top quality players.

Next thing I know I'm awarded 6 games and my rating is 2280 because people have been cheating. Seems ridiculous that I could actually progress to the next round on the back of this when I have yet to actually win - or even draw - a game.

It used to make sense to me too. But know I think differently:

You ask to be awarded with points because you lost against a cheater. The point is that you lost. Cheater or not your opponent defeated you. That sounds nonsense, I know, but think in this escenario now: You lose against a cheater but he never cheated in your game, or even better, you lost against a cheater, but he is not caught yet. In the same group I am also playing and a cheater is caught. I lost the games to him, but thanks to your new rule I pass to the next round. When second round starts, the other guy who beat you, gets banned and this changes everything, because thanks to the points that you should be awarded you should have been the one passing, not me. But the second round has already started, so what to do? Started again? Leave it like it is now? Start again doesnt make sense, and leave it like it is now, would benefit me and not you, with your rule. Like things are now, players who have lost, have 0 points no matter what. 

Maybe what I just wrote doesnt make much sense, I dont know, but it is something that  I have been thinking lately and to me, it does have some kind of sense, besides it is the rule that chess.com follows for some reason.

My advice: If you suspect your opponent is cheating, report him and play slower to give time to have his account closed.

What do you think?

Example that I forgot to mention:

We both play against an IM in a tourney. We both lose. He doesn't need to use any help against me for obvious reasons, so he beat me honestly. But he does need some help against you, a FM. When he gets banned for cheating, why should we both get 2 points? Sure, you deserve them because he needed help against you, but he beat me without any help. I lost because I had to lose and dont deserve those 2 points. Then, say thanks to those 2 points I am the one advancing! ( because of the results in the other pairings). What sense would that make? It should be you! If no cheater would have happened, I would have scored 0 against him and you maybe half, or 1 or 1 and a half, or whatever. You should have advanced (assuming the IM doesnt make it).

I have no idea if you are trolling or not, but you are indeed talking nonsense. The point is cheater's victim did not lose the game, although it may appear on the board like that, because rules matter. Cheaters break the rules - they deserve unconditional loss no matter what.

All players who failed to advance due to cheaters should be awarded full-fledged golden trophies and proclaimed co-winners retroactively as compensation (they could have won the finals, that's undisputable). Reckless tournament directors with plenty of spoiled tournaments should get their rights to create tournaments revoked.

Your second example is inappropriate too. Most occassional cheaters cheat vs unknown amateurs actually more than vs titled players. It is that because expert chess player becomes aware more likely and staff handles tickets from titled players with priority. Moreover, there is no moral difference between occassional cheater and devoted engine user: I mean it is pointless to speculate if occassional cheater played a honest game here and there as he ceased to be chess player and became a cheater forever.

First: I wasnt trolling.

When you say those who fail to advance should get the reward of a golden trophy, think that in that case many players who have golden trophies even if they dont deserve it and they would have never won the finals in norma condition (for example a 1800 player in a final against GM).

Well, I am not going to discuss more, I dont have the final word and I was just giving my thoughts about it (remember that I said I used to think like you but recently I have been thinking differently). What I said may be used to undertand why chess.com keeps it this way. But I have to admit that you have a very strong point in your last paragraph.

Tournaments, where cheating happened, cannot be handled as "normal". Honest players didn't fail to advance, they were robbed of it, and in such cheaters-infested tournaments they deserve special compensation. That's all.

I would suggest that the tournament table should just be 'shrunk' to remove any impact of the cheat. Therefore, no-one would get any points from the cheater or lose any points to them. It would be as if games against the cheater happened, but were not part of the tournament. That way the tournament isn't spoiled.

There are solvable problems when the second round arrives, but that's ok: basically, if the cheater makes it to the second round, and is caught and banned, you just remove them and their games from the tournament and send whoever now qualified instead into the second round. It doesn't matter that they will start their second round games later, it just means the second round will last a little longer.  

Much longer indeed. And what if the tournament has already finished. Do we have to play again 2nd and 3rd round? Meaning also that someone who has finished playing and is taking a break from chess.com, no loggin in, would start new games without knowing and therefor losing on time.

Yes. The games that hadn't happened yet, would happen later. Yes, sometimes people would lose on time, but that's part of entering a tournament. They can already last months and years (7 days a move, is two moves each a month - there's plenty of potential for one round to last a year or more!), you have to make a committment to be available for that whole time when you sign up, that's no different than it is now. Vacation is available in most tournaments anyway. 

As you say it, it would work. But I think it is too heavy to carry on. Tournaments could last even more than they already do, and the heaviest part is that a finsihed tournament could re-open to finish because a cheater has been found. And then, when it is solved, another cheater is found and again, repeat all the rounds since the pairings got affected. I think that is too much. And I dont think people would like the idea to finish a tournament, leave chess for a while, and come back and see their rating lowered (o a new round starts suddenly when they werent counting on it, adding more ongoing games to their games in progress). Impossible in practice...

Chess.com is, how old? 7, 8 years? and the best they have been able to come up with is the system we already have, I guess it is going to be like this for quite longer (unless they surprise us in version 3! )

I would draw the line at finished tournaments. I don't think people would care that much months after the tournament has actually finished. It would only apply to ongoing tournaments. 

@chyss: I think your suggestion is very interesting in theory, but it has some practical problems, like SkyMarshal pointed out. 

@monty82

I believe that the scenario you describe is mathematically impossible if the cheater wins all their games up until they are caught and banned. If the results of the cheater are removed then no-one will lose any points and so no-one can have a lower score than they would have if the cheater was still there. Thus the differential impact on player A and player B that you describe is impossible. 

The problem would only arise if the cheater was losing some games and winning others. In that case you would expand the next round adjusting the pairings to add the extra player (player B). This would be pretty rare and so shouldn't worry us too much. 

good idea, OP and Polar_Bear.

Cheating is exactly the reason why i cancelled my paid membership.

As a matter of fact, cheaters do lose or draw some games on purpose quite often to cover their actions. A cheater that always wins, is going to be easily caught and banned.

Complicated isn't it?

Glad I don't run the show

how they cheat so? and ho wthe cheat will be discovered and determined?

Send all Cheaters to prison is Japan.. that would teach em..