c5 always leads to a more fun and interesting game for me personally.
you can jus play Bf5 later, i like to contest that center right away.
Caro-Cann: Advance variation with 3...c5
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Well, 3...Bf5 is more popular and more explored. So, there is more theory to learn, and your opponents will definitely be expecting it, but it is probably also the best move objectively. With 3...c5, you have spent two tempi to get to c5, and there is no guarantee of rounding up the pawn. The compensation is in the weakening of white's advanced pawns, but black has not done much yet either and will have to spend time to place pressure on white's position. Theory gives an edge to white if he plays accurately. The obvious master games to look at would be Karpov's.
I do not like c5. It moves the c-pawn twice, leaving Black a tempo down. After 3. c3 e6, White is with an extra tempo in the French Defence. If you want to contest the center with the c-pawn, play the French. Most lines include a c5 break at one point or another.
I think that the Advance variation is difficult for Black to play. c5 is relatively unexplored and makes for original positions. I think Bf5 is the way to go, although you could give c5 a try.
True c5 hurts you in time and development. But ur opponent will never excpect it.
take the oponent out of his memorization while staying in ur opening.
i like to learn opening that are relatively unkown.
i own people with the englund and icelandic gambit & portugese.
BasicLvrCH8r wrote:
I do not like c5. It moves the c-pawn twice, leaving Black a tempo down. After 3. c3 e6, White is with an extra tempo in the French Defence. If you want to contest the center with the c-pawn, play the French. Most lines include a c5 break at one point or another.
dude, I'm not a noob. I know that if what you say happens black must be a really bad player as the most important thing in Caro-Cann is not to lock your c8 bishop as the idea of the caro-cann is to play a french without a bad bishop on c8.
http://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-openings/lesson-4-responses-for-black?page=2
at the link above in the post #26 I mention the ideas behind the Caro-cann in a small paragraph and have some useful tips.
My point is that your point is not right as black will NOT play e6 before bringing his bishop out.
hey kosmeg play that c5 opening against me, i'll show you how to play with it. i'll teach you the pitfalls by crushing you mercilessly.
KedDuff is the only one that got to the bottom line so far. When you play the Caro-Kann as Black, you play solid and boring, you draw,you take your score sheet, you walk to the tournament results sheet, you record your 1/2 point, then go get some rest or whatever and get ready for next round.
I have played the Caro-Kann for years. The reason it is part of my repertoire as Black is for almost sure drawing purposes in a tournament when I need it. Any discussions of trying for a win with the Caro-Kann as Black---without White overplaying his position in order to force a win where there isn't one---is simply silly. If you are going to try for a win with Black try the Sicilian. Try the French Winawer(Win-a-War) if White allows you to transpose into that variation. Try Alekhine's Defense. Try any number of gambits.
Even though none of the comments mentioned a try for a win with Black explicitly, it is insinuated the words used.
i`ve played c5 for 2/3 years. it is playable
transpositions wrote:
KedDuff is the only one that got to the bottom line so far. When you play the Caro-Kann as Black, you play solid and boring, you draw,you take your score sheet, you walk to the tournament results sheet, you record your 1/2 point, then go get some rest or whatever and get ready for next round. I have played the Caro-Kann for years. The reason it is part of my repertoire as Black is for almost sure drawing purposes in a tournament when I need it. Any discussions of trying for a win with the Caro-Kann as Black---without White overplaying his position in order to force a win where there isn't one---is simply silly. If you are going to try for a win with Black try the Sicilian. Try the French Winawer(Win-a-War) if White allows you to transpose into that variation. Try Alekhine's Defense. Try any number of gambits. Even though none of the comments mentioned a try for a win with Black explicitly, it is insinuated the words used.
Wow, I thought I was saying useful stuff, but in retrospect, I completely missed the point. Thanks for pointing that out.
Edit: sorry for everyone who read the post which was here before. just a misunderstanding.
Aug 21, 2008
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#13
If you always play 3...Bf5 and are considering changing to 3...c5, do you have a reason? Is it to avoid a particular variation that gives you trouble? For example, 4.g4 or 3.Nc3 followed by 4.g4. If so, can you use 3...Bf5 selectively, depending on what you know of your opponents' preferences? Anyway, 3...c5 is sound. True, Black has moved a pawn twice, but so has White, who now must make a decision. Perhaps before using it in tournaments, you could try it in blitz.
kosmeg wrote:
BasicLvrCH8r wrote:
I do not like c5. It moves the c-pawn twice, leaving Black a tempo down. After 3. c3 e6, White is with an extra tempo in the French Defence. If you want to contest the center with the c-pawn, play the French. Most lines include a c5 break at one point or another. dude, I'm not a noob. I know that if what you say happens black must be a really bad player as the most important thing in Caro-Cann is not to lock your c8 bishop as the idea of the caro-cann is to play a french without a bad bishop on c8. http://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-openings/lesson-4-responses-for-black?page=2 at the link above in the post #26 I mention the ideas behind the Caro-cann in a small paragraph and have some useful tips. My point is that your point is not right as black will NOT play e6 before bringing his bishop out.
FM Nicholas Nip, plays 4... e6, and according to your rating, he's better than you. I can easily see that you are not a noob by clicking on your profile and seeing that you are rated 1883. My advice may sound noobish (don't move a piece twice in the opening), but there really is no need for 3... c5. And after 4. 4. dxc5, you are down a pawn with minimal compensation. It will be hard to get the pawn back if you allow white to support it while you develop your light squared bishop, rather than an immediate e6.
3... c5 is not fatal, but 3... Bf5 is clearly better.
Aug 21, 2008
0
#15
Basically 3... c5 gives up a tempo to reach warped french (either placing black's bad bishop outside the pawn chain, compromising white's d4 point, or somin else), which can be very desirable for many people. It's really silly to see the opening merely for its tempo loss, and not see what advantages it can bring.
heck, even 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 e6 is still playable/interesting. The FM previously mentioned who plays this most likely doesn't mind the tempo loss as the french advance is theoretically harmless.
TonightOnly wrote:
Well, 3...Bf5 is more popular and more explored. So, there is more theory to learn, and your opponents will definitely be expecting it, but it is probably also the best move objectively. With 3...c5, you have spent two tempi to get to c5, and there is no guarantee of rounding up the pawn. The compensation is in the weakening of white's advanced pawns, but black has not done much yet either and will have to spend time to place pressure on white's position. Theory gives an edge to white if he plays accurately. The obvious master games to look at would be Karpov's.
Slightly more useful stuff than what you wrote would have been:
Here, kosmeg, this is a review by Jeremy Silman of Caro-Kann: Advance Variation And Gambit System, written by Anatoly Karpov
http://www.jeremysilman.com/book_reviews_js/Caro_Kann_Advance_Variation html
After studying this book you will be able to make up your own mind about the merits and demerits of both 3...Bf5 or 3...c5. I will tell you that Mr. Karpov spends 30 pages of his book on 3...c5 and 220 pages on 3...Bf5.
I singled no one out, except KedDuff, because from his comment he apparently is the only one who has studied Karpov's book. I own the book as well as many others on the Caro-Kann. I could message you with an excerpt from my years of analysis. But, then I'd have to kill you(just kidding).
Aug 21, 2008
0
#17
BasicLvrCH8r wrote, "after 4. 4. dxc5, you are down a pawn..." It is not so simple. Sometimes Black captures the pawn on c5 or the pawn on e5. At other times there is the option of b6 (yes, a gambit). It takes more than general remarks to evaluate the variation. Citing an FM who plays 4...e6 is fine, but did you notice in your many books that Botvinnik played 4...c5 in his rematch against Tal in 1961? transpositions, I not only studied Karpov, I played him.
@Green Laser
I think that either i miswrote or you misunderstood
. what I wanted to say is that I won't change to the c5 variation. (If i made a Grammatical mistake or so and that made you understand incorrectly, please tell me how it needs to be written.
After 3...c5 4.dxc5 e6 must be a possibillity as in the French takin on c5 is a strategical blunder.
@Transpositions
I've got a book on Caro-cann and I have to say that that I'm completely staisfied that it's quite a good one. I've spent really much time reding from that book and I think that if there is a thing that I should study now , certainly isn't caro-cann as I haven't even decided which opening I play against 1.d4
@All of you
because my engish are not very good you may have misunderstood what I meaant in my 1st post "I will NOT stop playing Bf5"
GreenLaser wrote:
BasicLvrCH8r wrote, "after 4. 4. dxc5, you are down a pawn..." It is not so simple. Sometimes Black captures the pawn on c5 or the pawn on e5. At other times there is the option of b6 (yes, a gambit). It takes more than general remarks to evaluate the variation. Citing an FM who plays 4...e6 is fine, but did you notice in your many books that Botvinnik played 4...c5 in his rematch against Tal in 1961? transpositions, I not only studied Karpov, I played him.
GM Ron Henley was Karpov's second for his match with Kasparov in New York. I have known Ron since he was 19. He lived in my home in Orlando, Fl. I know a little bit about Mr. Karpov too.
I don't disagree that 3...c5 is playable. My perspective, as I wrote in my previous post is that my repertoire includes the Caro-Kann for drawing purposes, not for attempts at winning with Black. Solid, boring and very drawish is what I am looking for.
Kosmeg wrote:
@Transpositions
I've got a book on Caro-cann and I have to say that that I'm completely staisfied that it's quite a good one. I've spent really much time reding from that book and I think that if there is a thing that I should study now , certainly isn't caro-cann as I haven't even decided which opening I play against 1.d4
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I agree with you, you should NOT stop playing 3...Bf5. It has lots of theory behind it and thousands of master games have been played with 3...Bf5. It is one of the moves I use in my tournament games. It is precisely because of all the theory and thousands of games that makes it a solid, boring and drawish continuation. And, as I have stated several times solid, boring and drawish is what I aim for in the Caro-Kann as Black. My purpose in defending against 1.e4 with the Caro-Kann is to DRAW.
I don't know at what stage, in your development as a chessplayer, you are. But, your question in your post is a very good one, as you can see by all of the heated activity it has generated. You are on the right track.
Hey guys I'm a caro-cann player and this question has came to my mind many times: In the advance variation should I play 3...Bf5, or 3...c5?
I always play Bf5 as this is what I like better.
I'd like to hear your opinion though which move is better?
for those you don't know what I'm talking about, look at the diagram.
(From move to move the theory is compeletely different, and as long as I've been trying for over a year to learn this type of advance variation, I don't think I will change my mind and start playing 3...c5 anyway)