There's been a few questions on the catalan recently, I started to wonder what it was about. There are a few variations in which black can take the pawn on c4 and follow up with b5. I don't know how good it is, but white loses the pawn. To prevent this, white should play Qc2 before black plays dxc4. Now after 5.Qc2, black isn't at all forced to take on c4 after all. I don't really know that position, but the game is obviously a bit different if black plays the triangle. It doesn't have to concern white. The more pawns black puts on the long diagonal, the more annoying it may be in the long run. Now, after Nf3 black can also set up a Stonewall after Ne4, so really possibilties are plenty. You will not get a lot of pressure any time soon after that :P
Catalan vs Triangle System
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I wanted to add I made a bit of a ''mistake'' with the move order. Gonnosuke is right. White is certainly inviting dxc4 if Nf3 is played early. Instead if you play g3 first you have a better chance to reach the Catalan. 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.g3?! c6 4.Bg2 dxc4 5.a4 is no problem. Here g3 may be suspect or it's just a difference in the move order. I don't know if 3...dxc4 is anything special there, I only played the Catalan a few times.
Gonnosuke, thank you for answering. From what I can glean from various sources,
1 d4 d5 2 c4 c6 3 Nf3 e6 4 g3 dxc4 5 Bg2 b5 6 O-O Bb7 7 a4 Nd7 8 Nc3 a6 9 Ne5
is the extent of the solid mainline. Because there is so little theory on this line, and because the alternative of playing 4 Nc3 and facing the Noteboom is so daunting, do you think this Catalan vs Triangle System is fertile ground for games?
in that position above in the game
white got compensation because he controls the dark squares
No, the Catalan cannot be recommended against the Slav Defense. You can't force a transposition to the Closed Catalan (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 d5 4.Bg2 c6 5.Qc2 or 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.g3 c6 5.Qc2).
The rule of thumb is, if Black plays c6, White plays Qc2. If not, White doesn't.
For example, 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 e6 3.d4 Nf6 4.g3 Be7 5.Bg2 O-O, White plays 6.O-O, but if 5...c6, Black plays 6.Qc2.
If Black can take on c4 with c6 already played, he gets a slightly favorable position. Note that in the lines where White allows dxc4 without Qc2, he doesn't Fianchetto his Light-Squared Bishop, like the Noteboom or Slav.
Against the pure Slav, if you want to avoid the main lines, you need to learn the Qc2 theory (1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Qc2 e6 or 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c6 4.Qc2, intending g3 and Bg2).
Nah, don't listen to him, g3 is fine against the Triangle.
g3 just transposes into an open catalan i think
MainlineNovelty wrote:
Nah, don't listen to him, g3 is fine against the Triangle.
I am a 2185 player over the board that has played the Catalan numerous times. I know what I'm talking about. Don't go around saying "nah, don't listen to him" ya douche bag!
The rule of thumb in the Catalan is, c6 is played (typically signifying a Closed Catalan), you play Qc2. c6 is not played, you don't play Qc2 until after the pawn is taken on c4 (i.e. 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 d5 4.Bg2 Be7 5.Nf3 O-O 6.O-O dxc4 and here 7.Qc2 is fine, as is 7.Ne5). After 7.Qc2 a6, White plays either 8.Qxc4 or 8.a4, both of which are to keep Black from holding the pawn (8.a4 prevents 8...b5) long term.
rowsweep, with ...Nf6 not played yet, it's not a direct transposition. Black can also take a Stonewall Dutch approach (4...f5).
"White players who have the Catalan weapon on their bags may certainly challenge Black on (g3 Noteboom) territory...many transpositions are possible (to the Catalan proper)...nevertheless Black should be okay objectively..."
- GM Ruslan Scherbakoov (a 2492 player!)
His "nevertheless ..." portion indicates he admits himself it's not best. What he's saying is White won't die doing it, but White gets nothing otherwise. If White wants any advantage, you must follow what I mentioned prior.
So not being "best" means it's "not recommendable"? This coming from the one who praises 1 b4...
The point isn't whether White gets an advantage, it's that he gets a position he understands better than Black.
Is it good for white to play the Catalan vs the Triangle System?
Specifically, after 1 d4 d5 2 c4 c6 3 Nf3 e6, is 4 g3 going to give white the usual excellent Catalan pressure?