English Opening Experiment #9

In my final game of the English Opening series, I get a win and am proud of my game, as it also secured 1st place in the English opening tourney. This game comes while I was watching the video series on Petrosian and his positional rook sacs. And wouldnt you know it, I was presented with an opportunity to test this Rook sac idea out in this game! I never ever would have considered this move until now. It worked like a charm!! 

http://blog.chess.com/view/english-opening-experiment-9

I thought you were trying to evaluate the english? Yet you choose to enter the main line KID. Also - I thought you wanted to improve or focus on positional play yet you enter an opening that is very theoretical. At least two of your games had early (very early) deviations from main line english moves. Perhaps you don't realize that c4 is not the english. One move does not define the system, especially since you can transpose into so many other openings. How can you assess this opening system by going into another line that has nothing to do with one you are trying to evaluate? Having said that, it is possible to enter the KID - perhaps the g3 systems. But I don't see that happening in any of your games. So if you open c4 and he plays Nf6, and you play d4, then he goes e6 - what do you do? Now it's a nimzo indian! If anything you are playing openings indicative of a d4 player. I thought you wanted to focus more on positional play and less on theory? See where I am going?

Erik, I do see your point. BUT! Having zero knowledge on the English and the KID, I have no idea that I am deviating from the English and still don't understand why it's so bad to play white against the KID. To this point, I am not trying to be an expert in the English, just simply wanted to play a few games with 1.c4 and see what happens. Nothing more! Now that I have finsished playing 9 games in the Engish, I'll go back and review my opening and see where I made mistakes and how to improve. I've clearly breached some kind of English players etiquette though, as going into a KID has obviously caused you to react in this way. 

With that said, I have been using a database to follow games by Karpov, Kramnick and Petrosian. So why is it OK for Karpov to play this way?

 And why is it incorrect to play d4 in the English? 

 

I'm starting to get an understanding of what the English is not. It seems I am starting out English and transposing to d4 player. I'm missing the point entirely as to what the English actually is. 

lol...I think it has more to do with your title.  Perhaps the "1 c4 series" would encapsulate things a bit better.

It isn't "incorrect" to play d4 in the English.  It simply (often) isn't the English when you do so. 

Also, I don't know what this "English Opening" tourney is that you're playing in, but they seem to be doing the same thing...1 c4 is not automatically the English.

I just thought that 1. c4 was the English. It must be more of a conceptual idea...in other words, the english concept is to control the center from the flank. 

My play is more pawn centric in the center. Which starts out English and transposes into 1. d4 systems. 

So it's not that my opening play is incorrect in the lines I'm playing, but it is incorrect in title, as I am leaving the English system within the first few moves. And the English system being control center from flanks, like Bg2.

There now, was that so difficult? 

Anthony is 100% correct.

On one hand you want to play the English, but head right into an opening that, in my view, does not give you an accurate assessment of the opening that is entirely new to you.

It's fine to transpose into a KID - it happens fairly often.  As I said before, Black can play moves d6,g6,Bg7, 0-0 etc and employ a KID-type structure.  However, the pawn structure is often completey different when one uses a Botvinnik type setup or more of a standard setup - I described this in one of your games.

There is no law against playing the KID as white when one opens with 1 c4.  I just don't see why, and I am now saying this for like 58th time, you play non-english moves when trying to get a 'feel' for a system as rich and diverse as the English.  In your case the transposition wasn't entirely coincidental - look how early you played moves like d4 in many of the games that were analyzed. 

Perhaps just playing a bunch of games that start with 1 c4 and trying to get a feel for the opening is not the best approach.  A better idea is to grab a few games from the major systems of the english - review how the pieces are normally placed, note the placement of the pawns, and the typical breaks.  Ask yourself if you honestly like the positions that arise after 8-10 moves for the various systems.  Also realize that for any Flank Opening - the Reti and the English, the tranpositions and move orders can been mind boggling.  The game can change tracks, significantly, by move 5 or 6.  You can easily want to play something like the 4 knights, but wander into a KID (!).

Karpov played the white side against the KID many times.  Perhaps in the game above he wanted to play something else against Topalov, but he (Topalov) clearly wanted to use a KID setup and Karpov elected to play a main line version of that particular opening.  Did he need a win in the event in question? If so, maybe he wanted to play a very aggressive line to push for the full point.

If you want to stay with the English, no doubt you will need to learn some stuff against the KID.  Think of it from a tournament preparation standpoint for a moment.  As black against QG, you play the slav, say.  Thus it makes little sense, as black, to know any main line KID theory.  As white, you play 1 c4.  Does it not make sense, then, to keep the KID theory down to a minimum?  Clearly the slav leads to games of a quiet, positional nature and you choose a system of similar flavor as White.  I would think, from the standpoint of practical tourney preparation, it would be best (and easiest) to keep the memorization down to a minimum. 

I'll let you in on another little secret with respect to the English.  The really good English players try their very best to stay within the confines of their at-home preparation.  But they aren't afraid to transpose into other major systems - learning a solid QGD line against 1...c6 is one example.

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Ding, Ding, Ding!

Yes, you don't seem to have a firm grasp of what a FLANK OPENING is. The english is an entirely different approach vs the classical systems where white strives for e4/d4 or gets to play c4/d4 very early.

Look at the first few moves of the English - c4, Nc3 (sometimes Nf3 - depends on what Black does), g3, and Bg2.  He played 4 moves and the d pawn hasn't moved.  Clearly he's trying to pinch the center from the sides (or FLANK).  In a way he's also starting a wing attack, while the center is anything but closed (Hello Silman rules).

If you'd rather always play for a central pawn duo - then maybe staying with 1 e4 is best, or try 1 d4 and 2 c4 makes more sense.

If nothing else, you need another 'English Experiment' but this time it should be done in the peace and quiet of your home in Texas.  Go over some representative games (at least 3-4 from the major systems, and then add some Catalan games, and perhaps something from a Sicilan Dragon where White can use the Maroczy bind) THEN make a decision as to whether or not you like the English!!