Queen sacrifice in Pirc defence

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MSC157

What do you think of this position? Who should be better and is it playable?
Just FYI, I played it today in a blitz game. 



JMB2010

It should be better for white if he gets his king safe and his pieces mobilized.

JMB2010

And e6 is a juicy looking square for the knight.

MSC157

Indeed, I was threatening it with Ng5-pin in the game.

InfiniteFlash

White should be clearly better as he does not have any weaknesses, and his pieces should have very nice squares. 

 

His king is a bit precariously placed, but it should not be a problem. Generally speaking, the side with the 3 pieces is better (if not winning in many cases) than the queen+pawn(s) as long as black doesn't have some kind of play against weak pawns or the king. If the position seems quiet like the one in the OP, most of the time the 3 pieces are gonna destroy the queen.

-waller-

Yep, I definitely like the idea as well, due to the fact that White's minors will have plenty of squares to be placed and be able to coordinate and attack Black. Black in contrast has the queen, which can only thrive on weaknesses and difficult-to-defend spots. As mentioned. Creative! What happened in the game?

MSC157

Can't remember the whole game, but something like that:



NewArdweaden
-waller- wrote:

Yep, I definitely like the idea as well, due to the fact that White's minors will have plenty of squares to be placed and be able to coordinate and attack Black. Black in contrast has the queen, which can only thrive on weaknesses and difficult-to-defend spots. As mentioned. Creative! What happened in the game?

You don't want to know.

But queen sac was really impressive.

LoekBergman

Congratulations, what a creative idea!

The biggest challenge for white in that position seems the development of the queen side rook. White must bring all his pieces into play, or he will lose. To get the rook into play white must play the white king to the second row.

That can be done using c4, d3 of playing Ke2.

The first and the last look dangerous, d3 restricts the working of the bishop. Still looks the best choice.

To be able to play Kd2 must white have some control over the diagonals of the black fields crossing on d2. That implies that black may not enter those diagonals easy. For that is the move Nc3 perfect. The black queen can not enter d5 - g5 and the other diagonal is covered by the position of Nc3 itself.

Furthermore is playing Nc3 one of the moves needed to bring the queen side rook into play.

So I would play:

11. Nc3 Qd6 (looking at f4) 12. g3 and expect Nd7. (Qe6 is met by Bc4)

13. d3 0-0-0 14. Kd2 and then has black several options for instance Ne5 Bg2 or e5 Rd1 Nb6.

Looks like a sound queen sacrifice to me.

CP6033

very sound sac!

KingGS007

white is bttr in this position

MSC157

Deeply checked with Houdini now (for better feeling) and it's -0,21 after 24 plys.

Actually, every move from 7 - 10 is the best one. Great. Hurray for me, haha. Laughing

InfiniteFlash

Houdini is often stupid in positions that require long term positional maneuvering. If I recall correctly, the engine does not see any immediate threats so it judges it evaluation off a lot of superficial values such material, pawn structure, and king safety etc...

 

In reality, white should be much better after it hits 50 ply.

MSC157

It's true. I did it only because I was curious. 

Irontiger

Agree with InfiniteFlash. If Houdini puts it at roughly equal (-0.21), it means that there are no immediate cheapos with the queen, and White should stand better.

At move 11, 11.Bc4 with the idea 12.Re1 etc. looks better than Nc3 to me, but hey, I'm not Houdini...

Schiffrin

I really wonder who is really better here. Black is a pawn up.

LoekBergman
Irontiger wrote:

Agree with InfiniteFlash. If Houdini puts it at roughly equal (-0.21), it means that there are no immediate cheapos with the queen, and White should stand better.

At move 11, 11.Bc4 with the idea 12.Re1 etc. looks better than Nc3 to me, but hey, I'm not Houdini...

I had that idea of Bc4 too. My first impression was 11. Bb5+, my next one 11. Bc4.

But after 11. Bc4 Qd6 12. Re1 e5 or Nd7 could I see black unravelling all his pieces where white would get trouble bringing his queen side rook into play.

And how will white bring his queen side rook into play? Playing d3 with the bishop on c4 makes that bishop very vulnerable. c3 locks in the bishop on b2 and takes the best field away from the knight.

What do you see that I have missed?

Irontiger
LoekBergman wrote:
Irontiger wrote:

Agree with InfiniteFlash. If Houdini puts it at roughly equal (-0.21), it means that there are no immediate cheapos with the queen, and White should stand better.

At move 11, 11.Bc4 with the idea 12.Re1 etc. looks better than Nc3 to me, but hey, I'm not Houdini...

I had that idea of Bc4 too. My first impression was 11. Bb5+, my next one 11. Bc4.

But after 11. Bc4 Qd6 12. Re1 e5 or Nd7 could I see black unravelling all his pieces where white would get trouble bringing his queen side rook into play.

And how will white bring his queen side rook into play? Playing d3 with the bishop on c4 makes that bishop very vulnerable. c3 locks in the bishop on b2 and takes the best field away from the knight.

What do you see that I have missed?

If Black plays ...e5 after White has played Re1, d4 looks tempting. But I agree the position is not so clear.

MSC157

I was so close to reaching this position again! Wow. Smile

http://www.chess.com/echess/game?id=101907601