Comparing Dubrovniks

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Avatar of dandyhipster

Hi Eyechess, I agree that CB's version is clearly less detailed than the others but I wonder if this is due to less effort being spent on carving the pieces or due to a conscious decision made by CB to produce the set in such a way based on their own interpretation.

The reason I ask this question is, if I look at some of other sets produced by CB at a similar price range, I can see that the pieces are very detailed, significantly more detailed than CB's own Dubrovnik (obviously not directly comparable as designs are very different).

So I wonder if CB deliberately designed the knights to be simpler, which I like by the way.

I am sure if CB wanted, they would be able to produce the version that closely resembles the original design; however may not be as detailed as NOJ through aficionado's eyes.

Avatar of Eyechess

You very well might be right, pianoknight.

I wonder what set they used to model their set after.

I know that the HOS set was copied from a true Dubrovnik set that Frank Camaratta had, probably the later Fischer model.. The Noj Dubrovnik II is also patterned after that set.  So the similarities between the Noj and HOS sets would be explained by that.

The CB set is quite different than the other two with distinct differences like one less collar on the other pieces and the cruder looking knights.

Avatar of Eyechess

I was just on the Chess Bazaar web site and I think I just realize that Chess Bazaar may very well have copied the HOS Dubrovnik set, which is a copy of a copy on its own.  Understand that the set Fischer liked was actually a copy of the original 1950 set itself.  And we know the House of Staunton had that copy copied.  If Chess Bazaar copied the HOS set, then it is a copy of a copy of a copy.

It certainly looks as if Chess Bazaar copied the House of Staunton Zagreb '59 set.  Frank Camaratta posted on this forum that it was a copy of his design set, and the CB set certainly looks like it could be a copy of Frank's design.

It also looks as if Chess Bazaar is going to copy the HOS Liberty Series set from what they have on their site.

Copyright issues aside, it does look as if Chess Bazaar makes a lot of copies.  Not that there's anything wrong with that unless you do get into the copyright thing, as Frank Camaratta apparenty has.

Anyway, let's get back to the topic.  If Chess Bazaar copied the HOS Dubrovnik it certainly looks plausible.  Look at how the HOS copy, which also is made or copied in India, has backed away some of the detail of the original Dubrovnik FIscher set   The HOS set has less detail and finish than the Noj set, which is a more exact duplicate.  It is easy to understand that these carvers and wood turners from India would take this HOS, reduced detail set and when copying that, reduce the detail and even change some of the characteristics, like the Biship's top of that HOS copy.

Two stages of detail reduction and change looks very much the case in the above pictures from the Noj set, ultimately copied to exact detail, to the HOS set, copying with a bit less of the detail and design, finally to the CB version reducing the detail and design similarities even more so.

Understand I am not slamming the Chess Bazaar set.  It just isn't as accurately detailed as the other two.  It is interesting that as the price of the set goes down, so goes the amount of the detailing and design duplication, from the original.

Now, we can talk all we want about the ethics of Chess Bazaar brazenly copying other manufacturers and literally knocking off cheap copies, but that's for another thread.

A good number of months ago, all we had for the Dubrovnik set that Fischer loved was the Noj version and that is at a steep price.

Now we have three sets to choose from at different prices.  In comparing the sets, we can see the lower the price the less accurate to the FIscher loved design it becomes.

Avatar of JackieMatra
Eyechess schreef:

I was just on the Chess Bazaar web site and I think I just realize that Chess Bazaar may very well have copied the HOS Dubrovnik set, which is a copy of a copy on its own.  Understand that the set Fischer liked was actually a copy of the original 1950 set itself.  And we know the House of Staunton had that copy copied.  If Chess Bazaar copied the HOS set, then it is a copy of a copy of a copy.

It certainly looks as if Chess Bazaar copied the House of Staunton Zagreb '59 set.  Frank Camaratta posted on this forum that it was a copy of his design set, and the CB set certainly looks like it could be a copy of Frank's design.

It also looks as if Chess Bazaar is going to copy the HOS Liberty Series set from what they have on their site.

Copyright issues aside, it does look as if Chess Bazaar makes a lot of copies.  Not that there's anything wrong with that unless you do get into the copyright thing, as Frank Camaratta apparenty has.

Anyway, let's get back to the topic.  If Chess Bazaar copied the HOS Dubrovnik it certainly looks plausible.  Look at how the HOS copy, which also is made or copied in India, has backed away some of the detail of the original Dubrovnik FIscher set   The HOS set has less detail and finish than the Noj set, which is a more exact duplicate.  It is easy to understand that these carvers and wood turners from India would take this HOS, reduced detail set and when copying that, reduce the detail and even change some of the characteristics, like the Biship's top of that HOS copy.

Two stages of detail reduction and change looks very much the case in the above pictures from the Noj set, ultimately copied to exact detail, to the HOS set, copying with a bit less of the detail and design, finally to the CB version reducing the detail and design similarities even more so.

Understand I am not slamming the Chess Bazaar set.  It just isn't as accurately detailed as the other two.  It is interesting that as the price of the set goes down, so goes the amount of the detailing and design duplication, from the original.

Now, we can talk all we want about the ethics of Chess Bazaar brazenly copying other manufacturers and literally knocking off cheap copies, but that's for another thread.

A good number of months ago, all we had for the Dubrovnik set that Fischer loved was the Noj version and that is at a steep price.

Now we have three sets to choose from at different prices.  In comparing the sets, we can see the lower the price the less accurate to the FIscher loved design it becomes.

There are several factual errors in the above post.

"Chess Bazaar may very well have copied the HOS Dubrovnik set" - Scarcely, since CB introduced their "Dubrovnik" set many months before HoS offered theirs.

"the set Fischer liked was actually a copy of the original 1950 set itself" No, it was a later design, by a completely different person, "Dubrovnik II" that Fischer said that he bought in Yugoslavia in 1970, and it can be fairly clearly be seen in this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S3lKm9gw3I and these photographs - http://www.eurochess.de/media/catalog/product/b/o/bobby-fischer-by-benson-seite3.jpg , http://d1lalstwiwz2br.cloudfront.net/images_users/tiny_mce/kboyer309/php9WZse9.jpeg and https://img1.etsystatic.com/001/0/6681291/il_fullxfull.371537073_bh0t.jpg

Avatar of Eyechess

I stand corrected.

Avatar of JackieMatra

The Noj Dubrovnik II chess set is the only current production chess set that closely resembles Fischer's " favorite chess set". In fact, from comparison with available video and photographs, it's well neigh identical in appearance. The HoS and CB "Dubrovnik" chess sets may be "copies" of some unknown chess sets or they may be "original" designs, but neither of them closely resemble any chess sets produced in Yugoslavia, and certainly neither of them might be reasonably said to resemble "Fischer's favorite set", except in the sense that all "Stauntonish" chess sets look alike, particularly eastern European ones, with knob-topped Kings, and uncut opposite-colored knob-topped Bishops.

Avatar of JackieMatra

@ Eyechess

Not to get into a big scrap here, but really, why must you knock Chess Bazaar so much? Why accuse them of copying HoS designs whenever they produce a chess set that even faintly resembles an HoS set? Why not ever accuse anyone else of copying HoS chess sets? Indeed, why is nothing heard from you at all when HoS proclaims that the EXACT SAME SET that has been offered for years by Chess Bazaar is actually their own exact historical reproduction?   "The House of Staunton is proud to offer an exact reproduction of the English Circa 1800 Series" pieceshttp://www.chessbazaar.com/the-spire-series-weighted-handcarved-chess-pieces-in-ebony-box-wood-4-6-king.html http://www.houseofstaunton.com/chess-pieces/wooden-chess-pieces/english-circa-1800-series-chess-pieces.html

"It also looks as if Chess Bazaar is going to copy the HOS Liberty Series set from what they have on their site." What evidence do you refer to, pray tell? The less than distinct photograph that they have of a "Liberty" chess set appears to actually be of a real "original" Pinney "Liberty" chess set (taken from this very forum) and certainly not any HoS chess set.

Avatar of burke3gd

I think it's completely pointless to accuse any chess manufacturer of copying designs, since everybody does it, including HOS.

Avatar of Eyechess

I do not mean to pick on CB.  They are just handy.  There are other companies copying, including HOS.  And I have said that in this thread.  CB is an example that is being promoted a lot on this forum.  And Frank Camarrata commented on CB and other companies copying much of the stuff he has created and copyrighted.

Handling Frank's designed sets shows the quality of the design and manufacture he has instilled and insisted upon.  I have handled some of the copies and thay are not as nice.

I find it interesting that CB names its copy Zagreb and Russian at the same time.  I did not think Yugoslavia was in or near Russia.

Avatar of JackieMatra

An original appellation, perhaps to give its prospective customers the impression that this chess set really doesn't purport to be a copy of any previous real chess sets? Or prophetic, perhaps, in that the way Uncle Volodya is going, Zagreb just may be in Russia in the not too distant future. Smile

Other chess set sellers quite blatantly mis-describe sets that they offer for sale. It seems that most of them like to describe a current production Sunrise Handicrafts, of Poland, chess set as a "Russian" chess set, with quite a few of them even adding "traditional" and "antique" to their description.

Avatar of burke3gd
loubalch wrote:

However, the natural maple on the Noj looks a bit bleached to my eye. Would prefer a honey hued stain.

As I now have first hand experience with the Noj maple and walnut pieces, I can attest that the maple is not as pale in real life as in the pictures in this thread. In fact it is a very attractive golden-yellow white. Not as yellow as boxwood, but certainly not bleached white.

The walnut is a very deep dark brown, much darker than shown in many of the pictures. I love it, it's absolutely beautiful, with an excellent subdued grain pattern.

Do not hesitate to order if you like the design of the Noj pieces.

Avatar of greenfreeze

that is a lot of chess pieces

chess sets are expensive

i wish i had that kind of money/moolah/dollar bills/benjamins/green backs/$$$

Avatar of kenardi

great pics, thanks!

Avatar of u127001

Wow. I wish I have the money for the NOJ. What a beautiful set!

I just bought the 3.6 CB sheesham version btw. I don't care much for the HOS version. As a matter of fact, I don't care much for the Frank Cammarata/HOS Marketing BS.

Take a look at HOS' FAQ section, and how much HOS bad mouths "Indian manufacturers". A person who's not familiar with chess manufacturers would read that and think that all HOS sets are not made in India.

Avatar of 9kick9

I also have a chess Bazaar 3.6 Sheesham & I like it alot.!