Morals and Ethics In Chess The Chess Equipment Business

FC did a huge service for the chess community back in the 90s by reintroducing the concept of buying a new quality chess set. But I reiterate my point above. The Indian manufacturers would only have gone direct if there was a substantial difference in what they were getting direct v wholesale. We have all seen videos of their facilities in action. I simply don't believe that they apply different manufacturing processes/materials to sets for HOS v other sets.

The problem is the manufacturers are independent business people and not owned by the Frank Camaratta or Carl.  Rolex owns their manufacturing place.  There is no way possible for the Rolex factory to suddenly drop the Rolex wholesale or retail arm and go direct cutting prices for the same product.

Yes, back in the 1990’s Frank found it best to contract with the man and family that are now Chess Empire as his manufacturer.  They also made sets for others like Dennis of Legend Chess Products.  And they never sold the Camaratta designed sets, wholesale, to Dennis or any other retailer.

But, time progressed and contracts apparently lapsed.  So we now see them selling sets like The Mechanics Institute Set that they used to make for Frank and HoS.

If Frank would have owned the manufacturing process instead of contracting with them, we would not be having this discussion now.

It's seem that all that HOS did was sell you a remade repackage Jacques of London chess sets, So he made his $$$$$$$ over time ?

1994-1995) Rajesh Sharma and Frank A. Camarrata, Jr (The House of Staunton, USA ) came into communication. The regular failure attempts done by the Frank A. Camarrata with many other manufacturers and chess suppliers for designing the Collector Series chess set for HOS has put Frank A. Camarrata in struggle and deep thoughts but once Rajesh Sharma showed his workmanship on collector series chess set design , Frank Camarrata mesmerized with the outcome of the perfection by the Rajesh Sharma(Amritsar Ivory Works). HOS immediately started working with Amritsar Ivory Works in huge way and Rajesh Sharma introduced hundreds of his own creation exclusive chess set designs in various sizes and wood combinations like Sultan, Sheffield, Empire, Centurion, Classic, Morphy, Player Series, Professional Series and many more continuously. Rajesh Sharma was treated as a heart of THE HOUSE OF STAUNTON, Inc during the time of many other chess  innovations done by Rajesh and Frank together.

Agreed. But the question then is why did FC not develop a manufacturing arm? European made sets are still available (NOJ, Mora, Weigel etc.) and the fact that they are locally manufactured gives them a certain difference and charm. Plus I think people are more tolerant of higher prices if they know the reason for them is local manufacturing cost as opposed to just huge markups.

India has access to labor/material that the west simply can't compete with; a western manufactured product would be many multiples higher in price than one manufactured in India. The only way western manufacturers compete in the current marketplace is on quality; Noj, high-end board makers, etc., differentiate themselves on quality, which is why they are able to charge what they do, but even at their prices, their margins are slim. Noj spends 25-30 hours on a set; if you work out the math, you will see they aren't making much profit, even at prices that are unaffordable by most consumers.

It is for the reasons above that western companies have been relegated to retailers of other's products (HoS) or niche/boutique manufacturers (Noj).

I understand what you are saying but you have to remember that Mora sets sell for about €50 - €90 made out of European boxwood (similarly Chavet) and Weigel sets are actually cheaper. For hand carved/turned sets, yes it would be a fair bit more expensive. I would still buy them but casual buyers (who aren't nuts like me 😜) may not.

Not to play the devil's advocate just for the sake of it, but it's important to consider two points - 1) How long does an international design patent last? And 2) Were these sets ever protected under patent in the first place? A design patent in the U.S. is good for 15 years and can be renewed at 5-year intervals by the original patent holder, or their successors (I believe).

In the case of the 1950 Dubrovnik set, even the Noj website, arguably the leading experts in Dubrovnik designs, lists the designer of the 1950 set as "Andrija Maurovi?" (The question mark is theirs). Obviously, if this was a patented design the name of the patent holder would be registered with the patent.

As for the Piatigorsky set, which was created by Herman Steiner in the mid-1940s, there is no evidence that this design was ever patented either. And even if they were, we're talking about designs that are 70-75 years old!

As for Frank Camaratta's designs (or anyone else's), if they are patented, they should be protected by law. And personally, it would be unethical for me to reward someone for the theft of another person's intellectual property. In a sense, it would be like knowingly receiving stolen goods.

I think we need to distinguish between what's legal and what's ethical. In the current discussion, something can be illegal and unethical, but it can also be unethical, yet legal.

@Lighthouse this is not the complete scene.  In that explanation you will see that they made Chess sets for Dennis Peterson of Legend Chess Products.
Frank is the one that created and ordered the pieces made to his specifications.  And as a result the Camaratta designed sets were objectively better that Dennis had made.  A few of us actually compared the various sets as between us we owned all of them.  And Frank’s designs consistently were of a better quality in handling than the others.

So, Frank did not ride on the backs of those manufacturers for quality.  He made them, through contract, produce the sets to his specifications.

@Audioq I believe Frank thought he could simply maintain with his manufacturers.  Also, he sold the business in 2004.  This was not a long time to own his business.  And just after the sale he was not involved with any of it.  
It wasn’t until later that he got back into the set creation game, so to speak.

We are all human and not perfect.  I am sure that Frank would have built his own manufacturing if the Chess Empire guys weren’t so good.  

Since only laws can be enforced and not human conscience, is it possible to enforce laws to prevent, discourage or punish IP theft in this discussion?

With the power of online shopping & the cheapness of international shipping it was only time before the fall of the middle man ?

Some of the chess set's up for sale from Chess Empire & Stauntoncastle are really nice ,

Can see why people would want to buy from them , you save them $$$$$$$$$ .

Let say I want to buy a chess set from Noj cost before tax is OK when you add vat then shipping the price becomes way too much here in the EU for a remade chess set .

I think we're talking about two different things. You are absolutely correct with the example you gave. In such a case where one retailer is clearly more expensive than the other for the same exact item, you can definitely call HoS expensive or overpriced. However, I was talking about it in context to this thread where it would not be right to call HoS expensive when comparing price between HoS and their manufacturers who sell direct. It would not be fair to HoS in such a case.

Eh...Slovenia is an EU member since 2004, there should be no VAT or import duties when sold in the EU

Mind you HOS still describes itself as a manufacturer in its banner and states Headquartered in the United States, The House of Staunton manufacturers the world's finest Chess equipment.

on its about page. In relation to why sets are so expensive it says

Buyer beware!  There are myriad companies out there claiming to produce high end chess sets made from premium woods, but at a fraction of the cost true craftsmanship would require.  They are almost always of very poor quality. They will have burn and tear marks, burrs, poor finishes, loose weights, etc.  These manufacturers are, without exception, knock-off artists who have no regard for U.S. and International copyright laws, and will make counterfeit copies of most anything on the market. Why buy an inferior copy to save a few dollars when you can invest in genuine House of Staunton quality that can last many generations?

They also refer to the makers of the sets as "our master artisans". These statements are a bit naughty since they appear to be trying to convey the impression that their sets are made in the US and fail to mention that the knockoff artists are in fact the same outfits who manufacture or have manufactured their pieces.

Most purchasers are not collectors who frequent these pages and if you do not know the details you would be lead to believe that HOS sells US products, which it doesn't and never has (excluding a few boards?).

@Audioq I did not get the impression they were trying to convey a message that they manufacture or sell US products. The only reference to the US was in relation to copyright laws. I could be misreading this though but that was my impression.

As for the knockoff artist, I just asked one of the Indian manufacturer if his company manufactured a set for another company in India and his response was something like it is XYX that copies everyone else. He basically just said the same thing about another company in India. I think they just accuse each other of this because the business is so cut throat.

The statement that they are headquartered in the US and manufacture the finest equipment seems to suggest to me that they manufacture in the US. They don't manufacture. They import. Why not state that? or even say we are based in the US and sell the finest equipment? I think this is deliberately misleading.

By the way I have nothing against the HOS and have purchased many of their sets but no-one  can complain about dishonesty by anybody else if they aren't being completely honest themselves. 

@Audioq

Noj

Thing is there do then you have shipping on top ?

@Audioq

On there other site prices without vat & shipping ?

Understood, but the VAT charged above is the Slovenian VAT, which would be paid if someone walked into their factory to buy one or bought one from a retailer in Slovenia. It is not VAT at the point of entry paid on imports from outside the EU. What is unusual here is that the price is quoted by NOJ ex VAT i.e. they list an export price not a domestic (including EU) VAT inclusive price.

I'm not sure if I've explained this very well. If I buy a set from India I will have to pay import duty and Irish VAT at the point of entry (on both the cost of the item and the shipping cost) in addition to processing fees from the customs agent. If I buy from Slovenia I will pay just the price that a normal customer would pay in Slovenia.

I definitely note your point though. The price quoted on their web page isn't available to anyone, anywhere in the world! (unless there is no import duty and no VAT, which would be unusual).

@Audioq

When I had ask Noj over what it would cost me this was my qoute , With shipping to Amsterdam .  point I am making when you add the extra price of vat / shipping get kind of

crazy round it off to 1k would rather go out & buy a real  antique Jacques for that bit more .

• Total price offer

Dubrovnik 1950 black stained 698 EUR + VAT

Delivery 31 EUR + VAT

Extra queens (optional) 30 EUR + VAT

Total:  759 EUR + 22 % VAT = 925,98 EUR

• Payment

For EU payments we suggest using bank transfer since it is very simple and we can offer special 3 % discount for avoiding credit card provision.

We do also accept VISA and Mastercard credit cards.

However, we will not ask for any payment until the set is totaly finished and prepared for shiptment.

@lighthouse : Agreed. I guess what I am saying is the quote they sent you makes it look like the customer pays €730 if inside the EU and €598 if outside, which is not the case unless the country outside the EU has no VAT or import duties or the customer can avoid them, which is a completely different ethical question.

But you are right, €730+ is approaching the level of genuine antique sets and while the NOJ sets are nice it is tough to justify that kind of price.