That's cool. What set is that horsey from?
Why don't we see CNC Made Knights lken masse?
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Feb 4, 2021
0
#3
That is an extremely long production time for one knight it could be much faster with use of larger roughers and leaving finishing for smaller tools. It could be done in 10 to 15 minutes with a hi speed machine.You have cost of equipment, higher wage for trained operators and programmers and tooling. It is more profitable to pay extremely low wages to workers who have little other opportunity than carving by hand. Aircraft parts sell for a lot more money. Having been a cnc machinist for 25 years, I do agree that it is very cool. You could have brass, wood, different plastics, aluminum, titanium, stainless steel or really any type of solid material (stone probably wouldnt work out well). Of course production time would vary by materials used. Wood should cut extremely fast. I would guess that many people are exploited in hand carving...the world we live in. If you liked it look up muti-axis cnc mill/ turning centers. simpljy amazing how machining has progressed in the past 15 yrs
sound67 wrote:
MCH818 hat geschrieben:
That video is cool! I don't know the answer to your question, but I would think the cost of the CNC machine and operator would be greater the cost of manual labor.
I would assume that, too. In developing or emerging nations, manual labor is often more cost effective than purchasing expensive machines.
Really nice video, indeed.
Beat me too it. Even as skilled as the carvers are I'm willing to bet their labor cost in India is far cheaper than investing in the equipment, 3D CAD/CNC programmers and operators. At least until you can reach some economy of scale (which is doubtful as TQG demand won't last forever)
Westsailor32 wrote:
sound67 wrote:
MCH818 hat geschrieben:
That video is cool! I don't know the answer to your question, but I would think the cost of the CNC machine and operator would be greater the cost of manual labor.
I would assume that, too. In developing or emerging nations, manual labor is often more cost effective than purchasing expensive machines.
Really nice video, indeed.
Beat me too it. Even as skilled as the carvers are I'm willing to bet their labor cost in India is far cheaper than investing in the equipment, 3D CAD/CNC programmers and operators. At least until you can reach some economy of scale (which is doubtful as TQG demand won't last forever)
Well, there is definitely no shortage of programmers and tech savy work force in India. But yeah, advanced CNC machines are NOT cheap. You have 6 more Knights to complete before end of day! Work faster or we will replace you with a robot!!
Pawnerai ha escrit:
That's cool. What set is that horsey from?
Varese series.
jacmater wrote:
Pawnerai ha escrit:
That's cool. What set is that horsey from?
Varese series.
Thanks @jacmater. Dang. $995 @HoS. I guess if they're going to showcase the ability of a CNC machine, go with a Knight from a high-end $1,000 set, rather than a $23.99 German Knight set.
KineticPawn wrote:
A recent New York Times article stated that upto 50% of a sets cost from making the knights. We also know that knights are also the most time consuming of the pieces to make. I was wondering why hasn't a major company started using CNC machines like this to make its knights?
Typo with title. It should read: Why don't we see CNC made knights en masse?
And here Mandeep from SC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WJoR9QH12k&feature=youtu.be
I believe it’s a great idea.
1. cnc are cheaper every day, as well as 3D scans.
2. I hate Indian made pieces design and finish, and when they try to make reeditions of famous European sets, they can’t prevent from betraying the design, change set and pieces dimensions, as well as the type of wood and finish. Remember their supposedly "French Lardy" or their "Russian" sets? These people know nothing about chess, chess design or chess players and they overestimate themselves and their work.
3. I find Indian made pieces very overpriced for what they are, especially when you know local wood and work prices.
Lastly, I see no ethics issue with replacing these Indian owned companies by robots, given they didn’t have any remorses killing more competent western jobs in the first place.
Last chess pieces maker in France closed this october. How many companies / crafters in Europe doing a better job are there left? How long before the original Ceska Klubovka be made elsewhere than they should be?
For a German knight, we’re in the 2 minutes.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RKGULuaVs5s
For a Soviet GM3 knight or alike, more like in the 7 minutes.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=noHCGCiaGtk
And… 24h/7
Dunno about that. Is there anyone willing to pay millions for a machine made painting? I like the idea if there is some master carver work involved in my sets.
Dec 23, 2022
0
#12
I only but older sets like old tech with CNC you get very uniform product.
I am afraid you conflatulate art and craftsmanship here. To the exception of a few rare barely playable chess sets made by artists which could be a bit expensive and sold at Sotheby’s etc, chess sets are tools, just as cars are.
The issue I was pointing out is that Indian carvers are not able to or — for culture or belief reasons or ignorance — don’t want to respect historical European chess set forms, proportions etc they copy, which ends up with betraying the original design.
E.g. most of Continental European chess set have the queen size almost equaling king’s size but Indian manufacturers always change that and the queen is then a lot smaller.
Another example is their lack of consistency in copying an original chess set: in the end the knight or the bishop or the pawn will be completely different in design, size or details which changes the design of the set as a complete object.
Schachmonkey wrote:
I only but older sets like old tech with CNC you get very uniform product.
I buy antique sets as well but not for the same reasons. I tend to prefer the original to the copy; but a a reissue is perfectly ok for me and I could buy such chess sets.
The problem to me here is that these manufacturers make us believe they are making perfectly faithful to the original chess sets, but they don’t even try to do their job properly.
beltram42 wrote:
I am afraid you conflatulate art and craftsmanship here. To the exception of a few rare barely playable chess sets made by artists which could be a bit expensive and sold at Sotheby’s etc, chess sets are tools, just as cars are.
The issue I was pointing out is that Indian carvers are not able to or — for culture or belief reasons or ignorance — don’t want to respect historical European chess set forms, proportions etc they copy, which ends up with betraying the original design.
E.g. most of Continental European chess set have the queen size almost equaling king’s size but Indian manufacturers always change that and the queen is then a lot smaller.
Another example is their lack of consistency in copying an original chess set: in the end the knight or the bishop or the pawn will be completely different in design, size or details which changes the design of the set as a complete object.
What your saying that Indian carvers don't want to or can't for what ever reason you mentioned, that is your view that's fine. Me personally think a master carver can reproduce a set from 200 years ago to the perfection if he wants too. i can think of various reasons why that is or even why that doesn't happen, but as long i don't know the person personally or the circumstances i'd call that speculating.
Regarding your thinking me confusing art with craftmanship, anything that is made by a man (or woman for that matter), speaks to me more than something made by a machine (chess sets in this case). Renowned painters like Van Gogh or any other painter from his caliber, you can say they perfected their craftmanship in expressing what they're painting so much that it is seen as art today. But than again, art is in the eye of beholder if you ask me. I wouldn't pay 100 bucks for their painting if it's about the painting itself, but for investments sure I buy them all for 100 bucks knowing I can flip them for millions in couple of minutes. Okay I'm drifting a bit here, but a scan of a Van Gogh printed on canvas won't be seen as art. That's my point.
What the heck is 'Iken Masse'?
beltram42 wrote:
Schachmonkey wrote:
I only but older sets like old tech with CNC you get very uniform product.
I buy antique sets as well but not for the same reasons. I tend to prefer the original to the copy; but a a reissue is perfectly ok for me and I could buy such chess sets.
The problem to me here is that these manufacturers make us believe they are making perfectly faithful to the original chess sets, but they don’t even try to do their job properly.
The problem to me here is that these manufacturers make us believe they are making perfectly faithful to the original chess sets, but they don’t even try to do their job properly.
beltram42 I think you find in most remakes, this is the case unfortunately , Let's take past posts / say on , that rare socialist workers chess set from the Balkans ,
TheOneCalledMichael Amsterdam is full of Van Gogh printed on canvas , be it on make up bags / Hand bags / shopping bags heck the list could go on , 
TheOneCalledMichael wrote:
beltram42 wrote:
I am afraid you conflatulate art and craftsmanship here. To the exception of a few rare barely playable chess sets made by artists which could be a bit expensive and sold at Sotheby’s etc, chess sets are tools, just as cars are…
What your saying that Indian carvers don't want to or can't for what ever reason you mentioned, that is your view that's fine. Me personally think a master carver can reproduce a set from 200 years ago to the perfection if he wants too. i can think of various reasons why that is or even why that doesn't happen, but as long i don't know the person personally or the circumstances i'd call that speculating.
Regarding your thinking me confusing art with craftmanship, anything that is made by a man (or woman for that matter), speaks to me more than something made by a machine (chess sets in this case). Renowned painters like Van Gogh or any other painter from his caliber, you can say they perfected their craftmanship in expressing what they're painting so much that it is seen as art today. But than again, art is in the eye of beholder if you ask me. I wouldn't pay 100 bucks for their painting if it's about the painting itself, but for investments sure I buy them all for 100 bucks knowing I can flip them for millions in couple of minutes. Okay I'm drifting a bit here, but a scan of a Van Gogh printed on canvas won't be seen as art. That's my point.
Sorry, I am not an English native speaker and I wrote "craftsmanship" instead of "arts and craft", which changes the meaning of what I was trying to point out.
lighthouse wrote:
beltram42 wrote:
Schachmonkey wrote:
I only but older sets like old tech with CNC you get very uniform product.
I buy antique sets as well but not for the same reasons. I tend to prefer the original to the copy; but a a reissue is perfectly ok for me and I could buy such chess sets.
The problem to me here is that these manufacturers make us believe they are making perfectly faithful to the original chess sets, but they don’t even try to do their job properly.
The problem to me here is that these manufacturers make us believe they are making perfectly faithful to the original chess sets, but they don’t even try to do their job properly.
beltram42 I think you find in most remakes, this is the case unfortunately , Let's take past posts / say on , that rare socialist workers chess set from the Balkans ,
TheOneCalledMichael Amsterdam is full of Van Gogh printed on canvas , be it on make up bags / Hand bags / shopping bags heck the list could go on ,
Totally agree.
It is in my view even more unforgivable:
for example, the beautiful Soviet "Mordovia" chess set (some still say "Latvian" but were actually made in Mordovia; the 1952-1953 issue is particularly exquisite - you can still find some mint ones online for around 100-150$/€.) was designed in a way to have people who were sent in camps by Staline - non professional carvers - to be able to make them flawlessly.
So I can’t get how some supposedly "master" carvers are not even to make them properly.
Another example is the Soviet GM3 set, how on earth can Indian manufacturers use the terms Russian grandmaster or grossmeister chess set and sell this betrayal of the original design. I mean apart from the bishop which is similar - more to the GM4 by the way -, every other piece is spoilt. Even the set proportions / pieces height ratios are not respected…
A recent New York Times article stated that upto 50% of a sets cost from making the knights. We also know that knights are also the most time consuming of the pieces to make. I was wondering why hasn't a major company started using CNC machines like this to make its knights?
Typo with title. It should read: Why don't we see CNC made knights en masse?
Example of CNC capabilities