1...e5 is better than 1...e6 and 1...c5, prove me wrong

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Avatar of MaetsNori
AngryPuffer wrote:
grantli wrote:

if the french defense is bad for the queen's bishop, why don't you play the caro-kann instead?

because the caro is less sound and much slower/passive for black

I'm pretty sure there's no such thing as "less sound" in chess.

There's sound, or unsound. One or the other ...

Avatar of AngryPuffer
IronSteam1 wrote:
AngryPuffer wrote:
grantli wrote:

if the french defense is bad for the queen's bishop, why don't you play the caro-kann instead?

because the caro is less sound and much slower/passive for black

I'm pretty sure there's no such thing as "less sound" in chess.

There's sound, or unsound. One or the other ...

this is sound:

this is a little less sound

then this is unsound:

Avatar of MaetsNori

Well, if a line has a known refutation (which leads to a worse/losing position by force), then it's unsound.

If it leads to an equal or favorable position, it's sound.

If it leads to an uncertain position, where it's debatable as to whether it's good or bad (which is what I believe you're getting at), then it's more common to say that the resulting position is "unclear", or that the line is "dubious".

"Sound" or "unsound" are basically binary terms. We generally don't say that something is "less sound", because that, by default, means that it's no longer sound at all ...

Avatar of AngryPuffer

just because it keeps equality/is a bit worse for you does not mean its sound

the latvian is not refuted nor is it sound

Avatar of ImmuneCreator56
I agree 1…e5 is superior but for me it is because of the bongcloud
Avatar of MaetsNori
d4iscrazy wrote:

so e4 e5 a3 is sound because it keeps equality. i get it now.

Sound? Sure. Optimal? No.

A move can be both inaccurate and sound. It becomes "unsound" if it leads, unavoidably, to a worse or losing position.

2.a3 is obviously an inferior move, but it's still sound - as Black has no way to force White into a worse or losing position from that one move alone.

But it does hand the initiative to Black for no logical reason, so it's clearly an inaccurate move ...

Avatar of scottcookson
NeoOnGOAT wrote:

Well in that line you are right, however after some more moves in that line, white has way more space, also 6. Bg5 is slightly more common, and in that line, black plays e6 and is very cramped

I don't know what you mean, Black isn't really behind in space after this:

Or even something like this in the Bg5 line:

Avatar of scottcookson

1...e5 also has some drawbacks. It gives White a target, which the natural developing move Nf3 hits, forcing some kind of concession from Black (blocking the c-pawn, blocking the f8-bishop, the Petrov knight being vulnerable). White's bishop also gets a great diagonal from a2 to f7, eyeing the exposed f7-pawn (you can't play ...e6 to block it). And by controlling d4 with a center pawn, you let White get a space advantage with a later d2-d4 without giving Black a central majority, which is the point of ...c5. Yes, 1...e5 lets Black develop faster in theory, but because the e5-pawn is vulnerable, White often extracts some concessions in the opening (the knight is often terrible on c6, Black has to play ...b5 in the Ruy and give White a target, sometimes Black has to give up the center straight away like in the Scotch). In comparison, ...c5 is more flexible and tends to lead to asymmetrical games with a lot of complications and counterplay, which means White can't just sit on their advantage all day.

Avatar of scottcookson
d4iscrazy wrote:
scottcookson wrote:
NeoOnGOAT wrote:

Well in that line you are right, however after some more moves in that line, white has way more space, also 6. Bg5 is slightly more common, and in that line, black plays e6 and is very cramped

I don't know what you mean, Black isn't really behind in space after this:

Or even something like this in the Bg5 line:

yk after a5 in the najdorf english black just goes a4 and is so much better you go b5 in that line not a5

Nah, 10...a5 is a good line. If White plays a2-a4, then you can stick your knight on b4 and play for ...d5, and if White stops you then you're still fine:

Avatar of scottcookson
d4iscrazy wrote:

g4 instead of Kb1 is +1 for white

Not as far as my engine tells me, in fact White should just play Kb1 after ...Nb4.

Avatar of DrSpudnik

Black doesn't lose a tempo by move 2 of the French. The Sicilian is the #1 response to e4.

If these openings were inferior to 1...e5, they wouldn't be the #1 and #3 opening responses to e4 by GMs.

Avatar of Skynet
DrSpudnik wrote:

The Sicilian is the #1 response to e4.

If these openings were inferior to 1...e5, they wouldn't be the #1 and #3 opening responses to e4 by GMs.

Ackchyually, modern GMs play 1...e5 slightly more commonly than 1...c5, and they play 1...c6 slightly more commonly than 1...e6. In terms of popularity among modern GMs, 1...e5 is #1, 1...c5 is #2, 1...c6 is #3, 1...e6 is #4.

Avatar of Chess_Player_lol

black scores better in the master database playing the sicilian rather than 1...e5

(1...e5 scores 38% White, 35 Draw, 28 Black)

(1...c5 scores 37% White, 29% Draw, 34% Black)

(1...e6 scores 39% White, 31% Draw, 29% Black)

(1...Na6 scores 18% White, 6% Draw, 76% Black)

so to conclude 1...Na6 is the best openign against white's 1.e4

Avatar of DrSpudnik
Skynet wrote:
DrSpudnik wrote:

The Sicilian is the #1 response to e4.

If these openings were inferior to 1...e5, they wouldn't be the #1 and #3 opening responses to e4 by GMs.

Ackchyually, modern GMs play 1...e5 slightly more commonly than 1...c5, and they play 1...c6 slightly more commonly than 1...e6. In terms of popularity among modern GMs, 1...e5 is #1, 1...c5 is #2, 1...c6 is #3, 1...e6 is #4.

Opening fads come and go. I've seen a few Carlsen games with the French recently, so maybe it'll make a big comeback. Regardless, these four responses are the most common and will remain so. I think the OP just has problems facing the French and Sicilian so he wants to crap on them instead of improving his studies.

Avatar of Skynet
DrSpudnik wrote:
Skynet wrote:
DrSpudnik wrote:

The Sicilian is the #1 response to e4.

If these openings were inferior to 1...e5, they wouldn't be the #1 and #3 opening responses to e4 by GMs.

Ackchyually, modern GMs play 1...e5 slightly more commonly than 1...c5, and they play 1...c6 slightly more commonly than 1...e6. In terms of popularity among modern GMs, 1...e5 is #1, 1...c5 is #2, 1...c6 is #3, 1...e6 is #4.

Opening fads come and go. I've seen a few Carlsen games with the French recently, so maybe it'll make a big comeback. Regardless, these four responses are the most common and will remain so. I think the OP just has problems facing the French and Sicilian so he wants to crap on them instead of improving his studies.

I AM the OP, and I don't even play 1.e4.

Avatar of DrSpudnik

HAHA then what's your big point? Just trolling the forums?

Avatar of Skynet

Yep.

Avatar of Talekhine09
Skynet wrote:

Yep.

If you want to troll the forums, just trash talk the french, if you trash talk the sicilian, you are dismissed as a troll, but if you tell everyone about the bad bishop in the french, many will agree

Avatar of AngryPuffer
  • e6 - very weak kingside in most main lines and is subject to attack. however you get major queenside counterplay
  • c5 - you are typically very behind in development at the cost of a better pawn center. usually you are subject to a major kingside storm and must be careful (if you play the sveshnikov, thats a different story) 

e5 is much more solid and is not as risk taking as the previous 2. often the game is more balanced and positional

Avatar of onlinechessacademy1

if you properly know sicillian you will legit be invincible... i was at a huge winning streak with the Sicillian defence