1.d4 repertoire advice.

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blake78613

If White just develops normally in the Veresov, the fact that his c-pawn is blocked by his knight soon becomes a problem and he is worse because Black has more influence in the center.

SmyslovFan

This hatred of the Veresov interests me. I wonder how many of these people who hate the Veresov have faced it when a master plays it?  There are two local masters who play it as their main repertoire opening. It works for them brilliantly. Yes, it has drawbacks, but it is much more aggressive than other QP lines such as the London system. 

Quite often, White gets: 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bg5 e6 4.e4. White doesn't complain about his c-pawn in that line. It's the Classical French!

Another idea in the Veresov is to play an early Qd3. This is a non-standard idea in other openings, so even if a player has booked up, White will still be more comfortable in the resulting middlegames. 

The Veresov will never be a main line opening for Grandmasters because with best play, it gives Black equality. But the play remains rich enough for titled players below 2400 to use regularly.

The Veresov is a far better practical choice for most players than the Catalan, with its microscopic advantages and ultra-precise move orders. 

And yeah, I still recommend the Queen's Gambit over the Veresov. I respect the Veresov though.

mvtjc

You might try considering the ENGLISH DEFENCE!

If you are interested in studying this opening please study with us by joining the English Defence group, hope you find this opening interesting for you.Laughing

blake78613
[COMMENT DELETED]
blake78613
SmyslovFan wrote:

This hatred of the Veresov interests me. I wonder how many of these people who hate the Veresov have faced it when a master plays it?  There are two local masters who play it as their main repertoire opening. It works for them brilliantly. Yes, it has drawbacks, but it is much more aggressive than other QP lines such as the London system. 

Quite often, White gets: 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bg5 e6 4.e4. White doesn't complain about his c-pawn in that line. It's the Classical French!

Another idea in the Veresov is to play an early Qd3. This is a non-standard idea in other openings, so even if a player has booked up, White will still be more comfortable in the resulting middlegames. 

The Veresov will never be a main line opening for Grandmasters because with best play, it gives Black equality. But the play remains rich enough for titled players below 2400 to use regularly.

The Veresov is a far better practical choice for most players than the Catalan, with its microscopic advantages and ultra-precise move orders. 

And yeah, I still recommend the Queen's Gambit over the Veresov. I respect the Veresov though.

Your attempt to make this an emotional issue facinates me.  Who said they hate it?  

Courtney-P
moonnie wrote:

@Satxusa: You forgot the slav defence. It is played a lot and very different from QGD.

I also do not really understand why you would play the Veresov against Nf6 but c4 against d5. This forces you to learn 2 opening systems for the same setup as black wil answer 2. Nc3 with d5 anyway. I would either play the Veresov against anything or play something else against Nf6 like the tromp

I guess I dont mind since I've been playing e4, and gone mad learning every defence under the sun.  French, Caro, Scandinavian, Latvian, Sicilian, Owen, Philidor, Alekhine.

I get your point though, Just play the Queens Gambit and learn the lines. 

Courtney-P

Thanks for all the feedback, your collective knowledge and experience is helpful.

Courtney-P

It seems that playing the Queens Gambit means knowing lines against different defenses, that however are grouped into similar themes.

The Indian Defenses, Gruenfeld, 1. ..Nf6.

Beonini, Benko, Blumfeld, Budapest (which i play occasionally as black)

Tarrasch( I play extensively), Slav,

QG Accepted lines

Are there any themes or responses that are not in that list?

shepi13
pellik wrote:
shepi13 wrote:
pellik wrote:

QGD exchange is a fantastic opening to build a repertoire around. I can't recommend a good book however as it seems most of the repertoire books lately have focused on Nge2, which I think is a little tired now even at club level. 

Maybe shoot for this as your tabyia

 

Nge2 offers the greatest advantage in modern theory. However, the problem is that it requires careful, slow, positional play at almost a master level, otherwise black gains counter chances.

 



Black has some fairly simple plans that lead to equality that have been discussed several times in this forum. Chief amoung them I believe is playing either the short variation (Bf5) or, in the event of the early Qc2 to stop the short variation, h6 g5 Nh5, exploiting white's abandonment of the h5 square. The idea arose on chesspub some time ago and even Pfren couldn't find any way for white to proceed.

Much of the QGD at high level lately has been with Nf3, Bf4, h3, where white retains a slight but long term advantage in the center but black has very minimal problems (so not so good for club players). Bg5 is still more critical at club level.

I am perfectly fine allowing the short variation. While the ending may be a theoretical draw at the super GM level, no one under 2200 should be able to consistantly hold that ending against equal opposition, and even most masters have trouble playing it. It's similar to the ruy lopez, white just has a slight edge the entire game while black has to work quite hard for a draw - and everyone is playing that nowadays.

shepi13

Also, how does the position that you showed avoid the short variation, unless the knight being on f3 means that you can wait longer to capture d5?

SmyslovFan
blake78613 wrote:
satxusa wrote:
 

It is certainly sharp, but hardly solid.  The Veresov is anti-positional as White blocks his c-pawn with his knight. White must make something out of his early initiative and active piece play, or he will get crushed positionally.  Generally if Black makes it to the endgame, White is in trouble.  GM Eric Prie (who specializes in irregular d-pawn openings) gives 2. Nc3 a ?!, and says he would almost play any other endgame then those arising out of the Verseov. ...

White is not losing in the Veresov, and it is not positionally bad. It's not great, but it certainly is not bad. White can play solidly or aggressively from the Veresov. 

blake78613
shepi13 wrote:

Also, how does the position that you showed avoid the short variation, unless the knight being on f3 means that you can wait longer to capture d5?

Why would you call it the Short variation?  Boris Spassky played it for years and Short only took it up after some training matches with Spassky prior to Short's match with Karpov.

ThrillerFan

I'd recommend the following:

1...d5:  Play 2.c4 and now:

A) If Black goes Orthodox on you, play 2...e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e3 Nbd7 6.Nf3 O-O and here, instead of 7.Rc1, play 7.Qc2!  Often you see yourself castling opposite wings.  If Black has already castled, and plays ...h6, don't just have a kneejerk reaction and move the bishop, but also look at h4!  If black hasn't castled, you must move the Bishop.

B) If Black goes Slav on you with 2...c6, play 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e3, avoiding many Slav lines.  Now they can play the a6-Slav, Slav-Grunfeld (4...g6) or the Semi-Slav (4...e6, most popular).  Now go for the Anti-Meran, 5.Nf3 Nbd7 6.Qc2 Bd6 and here, a Gambit!  The Shirov Gambit.  7.g4!

C) If Black goes QGA, play 3.Nf3 intending 4.e3 and 5.Bxc4.  White gets the advantage in the classical lines.

1...Nf6

Nimzo-Indian - Play 4.e3.  It looks slow, but there is so much play for White, and don't be afraid to give up a pawn, espeically one of the two c-pawns if it means getting Black's pieces all stuck on the edge (i.e. B on a6, N on a5) while you are slaughtering his King on the other side of the board.

King's Indian - Play the Gligoric, which is 7.Be3 in the Classical Variation.  It gives White the flexibility to castle on either wing.  Very complex line.

Benko Gambit - Accept it an play the Fianchetto variation

Benoni - Play the Four Pawns or Flick Knife attack.  White almost always gambits at least a pawn here (e.g. e5), and throws in everything but the Kitchen sink.

Then you have minor lines to deal wtih, like the Dutch (1.d4 f5), Modern (1.d4 g6), and English Defense (1.d4 e6 2.c4 b6).

shepi13

Also, what is the line with h6 g5 and Nh5? Of course white must be careful not to allow this pawn structure below where it is difficult to find a plan, but the weakening on the kingside must count for something:



royalbishop
SmyslovFan wrote:

This hatred of the Veresov interests me. I wonder how many of these people who hate the Veresov have faced it when a master plays it?  There are two local masters who play it as their main repertoire opening. It works for them brilliantly. Yes, it has drawbacks, but it is much more aggressive than other QP lines such as the London system. 

Quite often, White gets: 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bg5 e6 4.e4. White doesn't complain about his c-pawn in that line. It's the Classical French!

Another idea in the Veresov is to play an early Qd3. This is a non-standard idea in other openings, so even if a player has booked up, White will still be more comfortable in the resulting middlegames. 

The Veresov will never be a main line opening for Grandmasters because with best play, it gives Black equality. But the play remains rich enough for titled players below 2400 to use regularly.

The Veresov is a far better practical choice for most players than the Catalan, with its microscopic advantages and ultra-precise move orders. 

And yeah, I still recommend the Queen's Gambit over the Veresov. I respect the Veresov though.

Add me to the list of players that hate the Veresov. It does not fit me style of play. The exchanges that early in the game is idiotic to me. Not to mention a premature attack. The files can open up before you reach the middle game.

wackwow

d4 d5 e4 blackmar diemer gambit

Expertise87

OP said he wants to play d4 not he wants to lose every game...

wackwow wrote:

d4 d5 e4 blackmar diemer gambit

Casual_Joe

I've had very good luck playing d4 followed by g3, Bg2, and c4.  You can usually get Black to capture the c pawn which opens the long diagonal for your Bishop.  You play to recapture the c pawn with a Knight, and Black often exchanges his Bishop(s) for your Knight(s).  You might not regain the pawn, but you can get a very strong position.

Expertise87

I don't think that line is much fun if Black plays d5, c6, Bf5, e6, etc. Black just reinforces the d5-point and it's not clear why you want your Bishop on g2 - you can play for e4 but that's about it.

waffllemaster
blake78613 wrote:

It is certainly sharp, but hardly solid.  The Veresov is anti-positional as White blocks his c-pawn with his knight. White must make something out of his early initiative and active piece play, or he will get crushed positionally.  Generally if Black makes it to the endgame, White is in trouble.  GM Eric Prie (who specializes in irregular d-pawn openings) gives 2. Nc3 a ?!, and says he would almost play any other endgame then those arising out of the Verseov. ...

Anti-positional because a pawn is blocked with the knight?  Nc3 and Nf3 are more natural and more positional than the pawn moves c4 and f4.  It just so happens that c4 is a useful move after d4 d5. 

So if anything you have it backwards... QGD is the exception, veresov is the rule.