Accelerated Dragon with Queenside Castling??

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X_PLAYER_J_X
etriplec wrote:

I wouldn't have put it as bluntly nor as rudely as jengaias, but I agree with what he is trying to say. Speaking as a huge lover of the sicilian dragon, it is so hard to even play the standard lines because there are so many move variations to think about; unless you can fully appreciate the beauty of the standard lines/theory (something that can only be grasped at the higher levels of chess), creating novelty variations seems rather moot. At your level of play (1400ish), you really aren't good enough to create viable novelty moves, especially in a sharp opening like the sicilian dragon (or accelerated sicilian). (X_Player buddy... of course he won't disprove it, do you have any idea how long it would take to explain the accelerated dragon? That's like a day-long lecture for the average player and an even longer one for pro players)

But while we are on the topic of queenside castling for black (especially if white castles kingside), it seems rather silly to do so. From my perspective, you seem to be castling on a very vulnerable side where 1-2 of your queenside pawns are likely out of position already or traded. Furthermore, considering that I'd still try to focus my attack on breaking white's queen side (since my fianchettoed bishop is facing that direction), I want to activate my king side rook to the queen side. Castling king side is the easiest, not to mention safest way to do so.

Meh, I'm not an expert on sicilian dragon so don't take me too seriously.

Do not confuse what was said.

I wrote a few posts on this thread.

When I first came to this thread I asked the OP a question.

X_PLAYER_J_X wrote:

The question I have for you is why do you want to castle queen side in the Accelerated Dragon?

Do you have any underlining idea associated with castling queen side?

I wanted to hear the OP out.

Which was not done by any one except for me in this thread.

The OP said the following statement.

impaler42 wrote:

Good question X_PLAYER_J_X. I was thinking about combat sports such as MMA and boxing where the southpaw fighter often has an advantage because most fighters are orthodox and are accustomed to fighting other orthodox fighters. It seems like the analogy can be made that kingside castling is typically considered to be more "orthodox". I wanted to work on gameplans with queenside castling to exploit this tendency. I've also reading Lorin D'Costa's book "Who Dares Wins!" which details several games where players castle on opposite sides and those games were all quite dynamic and exciting. With that in mind, I thought the accelerated dragon was a good fit because of 1. c5 2.Nc6 could be used to set up a fianchetto on the queenside quickly and then castle on the same side. However, it would seem one would have to play a variation of it in order for it to work properly. 

People on this thread dismissed the OP's with out even hearing him.

The OP is looking for a more combat MMA/ Boxing line which is why I responded with the below statement:

X_PLAYER_J_X wrote:

If impaler42 wants more opposite side castling because he feels like having more aggression in his games.

Than frankly I think he should consider changing his line.

I believe the Sicilian Dragon would be a better fit.

Opposite side castling happens 90% of the time in the Sicilian dragon.

Thanks to the Yugoslav Attack which is the mainline.

It turns into a tactical slugg fest were the goal of winning is decided on who can checkmate the opponents king the fastest.

The Accelerated Dragon was made/designed as a way of reducing those aggressive types of position's.

It is considered to be slightly more positional in nature.


Bascially Sicilian dragon players who get tired of the tactical slugg fest of the Sicilian Dragon often seek out playing the Accelerated Dragon.


 

After which I was insulted. The reason jengaias can not disprove me is not because it would take up to much time!

Jengaias can not disprove me because he can't disprove a post which ask only questions

and

he can't disaprove a post which gives the OP suggestions

lol

I have played both the black and white sides of the Sicilian Dragon.

I have also played  both the back and white side of the Accelerated Dragon.

CamelsOfYaqoob

Why doesn't t he watch videos about lines against the Sicilian or message grand masters and at least try to get a response... It would be a better use of his time. It needs years and years of practice.

Learn to walk before trying to perform a gymnastic backflip. Once amateurs like myself and him understand this simple concept the learning process gets a lot easier. He has even hinted in his subject line that queenside castling is a blunder so watch videos for hundreds of hours before you finally understand the lesson...

Learn the basics before studying advanced concepts!

The_Ghostess_Lola

Don't rule out castling QS hon....and asthetics counts. I'd rather lose w/ beauty than win a some boring trade-down game. Only 'cuz noone blabbing here on chessdotcom will ever amount to anything more than a good club player w/out a title. So enjoy this game immensely while keeping it all in perspective. 

I wish you all the best....Smile....L

X_PLAYER_J_X

This is hilarious!

Jengaias insults the OP for asking a chess question on a chess forum.

Jengaias than insults me for asking a question and giving a humble suggestion.

Now Jengaias trys to make people feel bad about themselves for not listening to him using pity.

I have to hand it to you Sir for that Oscar winning preformance!

Unbelieveable!

Why don't you tell us the name of your coach who taught you to be this way.


etriplec
The_Ghostess_Lola wrote:

Don't rule out castling QS hon....and asthetics counts. I'd rather lose w/ beauty than win a some boring trade-down game.

Woah!!! The sicilian dragon is not some boring trade-down game. It truly is a beautiful opening... epic attacks from both sides (usually on opposite sides), supported by pawn storms.

But yah, not saying you definitely shouldn't queenside castle. Just remember that if you decide to spend 2 turns putting a bishop on the g7 square, you probably should commit to some kind of queenside attack (and the king will only be in the way of your rooks for a queenside attack if you place him on c8).

erik42085

I agree with xplayer, a mainline Dragon will give the OP all the tactical headaches his little heart desires. Castling queenside as black just seems like a bad idea in any Sicilian line. Playing the Dragon is very hard though if your opponent knows what to do black will get crushed more often than not. You have to be very precise, one mistake will cost you the game. For this reason I play the Najdorf. White still will castle long a fair amount of the time and black has quicker counter play without the weakening g6. All this move does imo is give white a target hence speeding up whites attack, but last I checked the Dragon hasn't been totally refuted so I guess to each their own. I've only faced a Dragon once here so you might catch a few people off guard by playing it.

The_Ghostess_Lola

I'm not 1755 like if you were to hover over my name. I'm more like 1350. But if I played you and I felt QS castling was the best move ?....I wouldn't hesitate....but that doesn't mean I hafta castle. Maybe not castling is best  -kinda like old people underwear....depends.

X_PLAYER_J_X

You know maybe I am going a little to far.

However, I have never even considered the idea of castling queen side in the accelerated dragon until today.

Maybe I am a little to curious for my own good.

However, I honestly have to ask.

At what move are you planning to castle queen side?

This seems interesting to me because it doesn't seem that easy.

This is creative stuff right here.

The below position is the starting position of the Accelerated Dragon.


To castle queen side here we have to move 1 pawn + 1 light square bishop + 1 queen + castle.

It will take us 4 moves to castle queen side.

This is sophisticated stuff here.

How are we going to do it with out getting crushed.

We played g6 we obviously want our dark bishop on g7.

Which is 5 moves total we got to play.

This seems very tricky.

pfren
ThrillerFan wrote:

After 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6, I play 5.f3 instead of 5.Nc3, which is known as the Prins variation, and White's next move in most lines is going to be 6.c4, and so a move like 5...a6?! has no purpose what-so-ever, and is just outright bad.  Black has 3 legit options, 5...e5, transposing directly to an accelerated dragon, or playing a hedgehog setup.  I get opponents that try to force Najdorf moves when they just flat out don't work!

 

Transposing to WHAT?

Add to that: 5...a6 is not a bad move at all. It mostly transposes to typical hedgehog positions. Here are two GM's on it:

 



pfren
jengaias wrote:
How on earth 5...e5 transposes to accelerated Dragon?Accelerated Najdorf maybe......

Or rather accelerated total equality after 6.Nb3 d5 7.Bg5 d4 8.c3 Nc6.

 

I was considering playing occasionally the Prins as White, and ended playing the above line as Black instead...

Robert_New_Alekhine

The problem for black is that in queenside castling, the queen's side is quite opem and would be easy to attack for white. Meanwhile, there is no chance for black to attack anything on the kingside.

pfren
Robert_New_Alekhine wrote:

The problem for black is that in queenside castling, the queen's side is quite opem and would be easy to attack for white. Meanwhile, there is no chance for black to attack anything on the kingside.

Mostly the problem is that the presence of the king on the queenside kills Black's tradtional counterplay down the c-file and by pushing the a and b pawns, and leaves Black with the (also traditional) Dragon positional liabilities, which is mainly that  damned d5 square...

Dragon is an active opening by nature, and requires energetic play. If you are afraid you will be mated on the queenside, then either play the Accelerated (and allow the Maroczy annoying space squeeze) or don't play the Dragon at all!

I'm not fond of either the Dragadorf, or the Chinese Dragon- the classical approach is fine.

Reference works are the two PH Nielsen's DVDs from Chessbase, and the two-volume Quality Chess repertoire by Gawain Jones. Sure, a lot of things to memorize just to stay alive, but you can't play the Dragon without variation memorization...

ThrillerFan
jengaias wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:

.

After 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6, I play 5.f3 instead of 5.Nc3, which is known as the Prins variation, and White's next move in most lines is going to be 6.c4, and so a move like 5...a6?! has no purpose what-so-ever, and is just outright bad.  Black has 3 legit options, 5...e5, transposing directly to an accelerated dragon, or playing a hedgehog setup.  I get opponents that try to force Najdorf moves when they just flat out don't work!

 

How on earth 5...e5 transposes to accelerated Dragon?Accelerated Najdorf maybe......

No, you misread it.

 

Black has 3 good options

5...e5

Transposing to the Accelerated Dragon

Playing a Hedgehog setup

(The first does not do the second - the first is its own line)

 

And in response to pfren, yes, if you follow up 5...a6 with a transposition to the Hedgehog, you're fine, just different move order.

 

What I get a lot of is 5...a6, 6...e5, and typical Najdorf followup moves and ideas.  This does not work at all.  You will get killed in this line trying to do that!

Mysound

leave the queenside castling to white in the accel.

and then attack the hell out of it it ;) 

best part about playing the accell ^^

pfren
jengaias wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:
jengaias wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:

.

 

 

And in response to pfren, yes, if you follow up 5...a6 with a transposition to the Hedgehog, you're fine, just different move order.

 

What I get a lot of is 5...a6, 6...e5, and typical Najdorf followup moves and ideas.  This does not work at all.  You will get killed in this line trying to do that!

You are very dogmatic and there are no dogmatic truths in chess.In my humble opinion the position after 5.f3 a6 6.c4 e5 is playable for Black especially in any under Kasparov/Kramnik level.Of course I don't see why Black should play 6...e5 and weaken d5 after 6.c4 and it is highly unusual in Maroczy bind but winning against it ,is far from easy or certain as you present it.In fact the position is nothing more than a little better for white  which is practically nothing for players of our level.

By 6...e5 you will achieve a Kalashnikov setup with some not-so-subtle differences:

- No opportunity to expand on the queenside by ...b5

- The white knight does not have to lose time by Nd4-b5-a3-c2 etcetera.

- The knight on f6 temporarily prevents the typical Be7-Bg5 swap plan.

All of them packed in one are a high price to pay... The most probable scenario is that Black will end up defending a very passive position.

CamelsOfYaqoob

jengaias wrote:

 and promise never to be so rude to them ever again.X_PLAYER_J_X wrote:

This is hilarious!

Jengaias insults the OP for asking a chess question on a chess forum.

Jengaias than insults me for asking a question and giving a humble suggestion.

Now Jengaias trys to make people feel bad about themselves for not listening to him using pity.

I have to hand it to you Sir for that Oscar winning preformance!

 

Unbelieveable!

Why don't you tell us the name of your coach who taught you to be this way.

What you don't understand is that I never insulted you , I insulted the idiots and to them I trully apologise.It was very inapropriate of me.

Truly**

Edit: Inappropriate**

:p

Spellcheck please  Camels.

P.s. Touchscreen is gay!

pfren
Mysound wrote:

leave the queenside castling to white in the accel.

and then attack the hell out of it it ;) 

best part about playing the accell ^^

Huh? I'm afraid I don't get it.

The big idea behind the Accelerated Dragon is to make white castle kingside.

lolurspammed

There are no absolute truths in chess but there IS objectivity. Although you may prefer a lost position to a winning position personally, this doesn't change that a won position or even a better position can be proved via numbers and calculation. Its true that dogma is bad in chess, but recognizing that a position is miserable for a certain side isn't dogmatic, it's being able to assess positions accurately, which in chess is objective.

Mysound
pfren wrote:
Mysound wrote:

leave the queenside castling to white in the accel.

and then attack the hell out of it it ;) 

best part about playing the accell ^^

Huh? I'm afraid I don't get it.

The big idea behind the Accelerated Dragon is to make white castle kingside.

Precisely.  I'm referring to the insubordinates who still try to 0-0-0 anyway, for ex. they play qd2 instead of 0-0, and then after ..d5! they try to 0-0-0,, or perhaps they play exd, or nxc6 ..bxc6 first and then try to queenside castle. black has a ton of fun sliding the the Q over to something like c7, Rb8, Bf5 and just basically pointing the entire arsenal at the white king.

This is of course not the sound way for white to play; they should go kingside castle as you mention.  But when they don't it's a lotta fun ;)

pfren
Mysound wrote:
pfren wrote:
Mysound wrote:

leave the queenside castling to white in the accel.

and then attack the hell out of it it ;) 

best part about playing the accell ^^

Huh? I'm afraid I don't get it.

The big idea behind the Accelerated Dragon is to make white castle kingside.

Precisely.  I'm referring to the insubordinates who still try to 0-0-0 anyway, for ex. they play qd2 instead of 0-0, and then after ..d5! they try to 0-0-0,, or perhaps they play exd, or nxc6 ..bxc6 first and then try to queenside castle. black has a ton of fun sliding the the Q over to something like c7, Rb8, Bf5 and just basically pointing the entire arsenal at the white king.

This is of course not the sound way for white to play; they should go kingside castle as you mention.  But when they don't it's a lotta fun ;)

White can play Bc4 and Bb3 before Qd2 and f2-f3, when Black either has to enter a regular Dragon (where white will catsle queenside), or try the speculative ...a5 line, which I have played myself as Black several times, but currently do not regard as completely adequate.