< Age 10, Defense Against e4: e5, Scandi, or French?

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JayeshSinhaChess

Very limited knowledge on the subject, however here's what I feel. Against e4, I always play e5 and have been fairly comfortable against it.

 

What to play against 1.d4, now thats a whole different beast to answer.

knighttour2

Agree with 1...e5 for the reasons stated above, but I'd like to add that the French was my first (and only) opening that I learned against e4.  It can be tougher to learn but I like that black has clear plans that involve undermining the center and his pieces are often developed the same way in many different variations.  I didn't play chess seriously at all until I was 18, so being more mature/patient probably helped me out playing this opening.  

One nice thing is that kids nearly always play the advance variation with white, which is my favorite to play against  happy.png 

EyesOfaPanther

you could play the Icelandic Gambit and the Portuguese gambit in the Scandinavian because no one at that level will know how to play against it and they are very sharp opening lines.

EyesOfaPanther

 

knighttour2

Kids won't improve playing lines like that.  They might pick up some wins and boost their rating, but once they play people who know what they're doing their lack of knowledge will show.

daxypoo
a couple of coaches have recommended 1. ...e5 and winging it; a main requirement is to play 100's or maybe 1000's of games; the trial by fire approach

i use a repertoire from chessable dealing with 1. e4 ...e5 specifically and it has lines dealing with all kinds of e4 mayhem; i only go into each e4 opening (king's gambit, italian, ruy lopez, vienna, bishop, scotch, etc...) a couple of lines each- very little theory to be honest- but just being familiar with a few moves is helpful
SeniorPatzer
daxypoo wrote:
a couple of coaches have recommended 1. ...e5 and winging it; a main requirement is to play 100's or maybe 1000's of games; the trial by fire approach

i use a repertoire from chessable dealing with 1. e4 ...e5 specifically and it has lines dealing with all kinds of e4 mayhem; i only go into each e4 opening (king's gambit, italian, ruy lopez, vienna, bishop, scotch, etc...) a couple of lines each- very little theory to be honest- but just being familiar with a few moves is helpful

 

Thanks Ralphie!

daxypoo
np
just dont ask me to change your tire
darkunorthodox88

first openings i learned as black as a scholastic player? 1.nc6 and 1.b6

i like the fact you are considering the scandinavian. bold.

 

idk though. why limit them to only one? why dont you show them standard positions for each and after explaining briefly the strategy for both sides, let them pick?

i was a a coach for a very young very naturally talented kid for a brief period of time and i was told those sessions where very successful. they wanted me to teach a repertoire that can be light on theory but effective. this is what i recommended.

 

for white scotch opening, bishops opening, and vienna gambit for surprises, rossolimo attack or closed sicilian , french exchange or 3.nc3 bg5 lines, caro exchange or some quieter nc3 system

 

for black, petroff and nimzo-indian, bogo indian.

 

 

darkunorthodox88

i also second not wanting to teach kids sicilian. i see kids playing 10+ lines of sicilian not knowing what the hell is going on.

 

1.e4 c5 2.b3!? and they are already lost on what to do. that's what bad coaching does to kids. But what do parents know about good coaching? all they see is 25$ an hour and their little precious winning their local scholastic tourney bc only little jimmy is getting lessons.

dashkee94

For someone at that level, I'd stay away from both the Sicilian and the French.  Getting the classical concepts down with e5 first I consider critical; then branch to the semi-open games.  The French and the Sicilian are both good counter-attacking lines, but it takes years of study and practice to play them well, with plenty of losses along the way.  When you do play them well they are a nice weapon to have, but when you're starting out and choosing e4, learn both sides of the open game before trying the semi-open games.

Homsar

The French since I feel it's easy to learn. I would also suggest not spending much time on openings, it's more important to learn principles and strategy first.

Toire
MetalRatel wrote:

I would recommend learning the open games with 1.e4 e5. The Scandinavian is not the best opening for teaching classical opening principles. "Safe and easy" without a principled approach to the opening becomes a crutch in the long term. I have worked with younger students where we had to work through bad habits that developed from "easy" systems recommended by another coach. Maybe the Scandinavian could be useful to teach as a surprise weapon for stronger students who have a good foundation in opening principles, but I don't care much for it as a main defense for a beginning player. 

The lessons from the open games will be valuable for learning other openings in the future. It is so important to have a sense for the initiative in these openings and this experience will serve a player well in the long run. I am a little uneasy about a student starting with the French, since this often leads to closed positions where inexperienced younger players can tend to play too passively with a space disadvantage. For an inexperienced player, the illusion of safety in closed positions can lead to some bad habits if there is not a proper foundation. The French is a counterattacking opening and it takes significant skill to play it properly.

Good Thread and sound advice from an NM.

I agree completely.

 

kindaspongey
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kindaspongey
floppsy wrote:

agree with the general e5 ... but why not c5? ... most of all - why stay on one opening? ...

"... Overall, I would advise most players to stick to a fairly limited range of openings, and not to worry about learning too much by heart. ..." - FM Steve Giddins (2008)

I think the idea is to avoid spending too much time on openings. I have seen some sympathy for the idea of the Sicilian for new players, but mostly, I have seen the sort of thing that IM John Watson wrote around 2010:

"... For players with very limited experience, ... the Sicilian Defence ... normally leaves you with little room to manoeuvre and is best left until your positional skills develop. ... I'm still not excited about my students playing the Sicilian Defence at [the stage where they have a moderate level of experience and some opening competence], because it almost always means playing with less space and development, and in some cases with exotic and not particularly instructive pawn-structures. ... if you're taking the Sicilian up at [say, 1700 Elo and above], you should put in a lot of serious study time, as well as commit to playing it for a few years. ..."

kindaspongey
MetalRatel wrote:
Quasimorphy wrote:

My First Opening Repertoire for Black by Moret might interest you.  It uses the Scandinavian Portugese Variation against 1.e4.  (Albin Counter-Gambit and Stonewall Dutch are the other main defenses in that book) ...

I liked his book for White, but I think his recommendations for Black could get a beginning player (or anyone for that matter) in a lot of trouble. IM Christof Sielecki (Chessexplained) did a review of this book on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgqUmSVbdFk (go to the 50 minute mark).

https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/9050.pdf

https://chessbookreviews.wordpress.com/tag/vincent-moret/

kindaspongey
BobbyTalparov wrote:

... @SeniorPatzer might find that "Chess Openings Explained for Black, 2nd Edition" ... would be a better repertoire to use to teach his son.  If memory serves, it is based around the Hyperaccelerated Dragon for e4, which will definitely help develop his tactical skills.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140627060405/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen75.pdf

Harsh1739

SeniorPatzer wrote:

Harsh1739 wrote:

I would recommend e5 as it is a lot simpler and it involves middle games which can be both tactical and positional.

 

You don't think the d5 Scandinavian is simpler?

Yes the Scandinavian is simpler but as NM said, e4 e5 has a wide scope of learning whereas Scandinavian does not have such vast scope.

Harsh1739

SeniorPatzer wrote:

Harsh1739 wrote:

I would recommend e5 as it is a lot simpler and it involves middle games which can be both tactical and positional.

 

You don't think the d5 Scandinavian is simpler?

I recommend Senior patzer to download/buy Fundamental Chess Openings book. It contains alot of theory which will help your kids. You can download it for free from this site- en.bookfi.net

kindaspongey

"... [Fundamental Chess Openings by GM Paul van der Sterren] is not particularly suited for players who are just starting out. I would imagine players rated at least 1400-1500 would get the most benefit from this volume. ..." - FM Carsten Hansen (2009) https://web.archive.org/web/20140626173432/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen128.pdf

Here is a sample:

http://www.gambitbooks.com/pdfs/FCO_Fundamental_Chess_Openings.pdf

For details on lots of openings, Seirawan's Winning Chess Openings is probably a lot more readable.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140627132508/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen173.pdf

Other possibilities:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140708093123/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/review756.pd

https://web.archive.org/web/20140627031504/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen76.pdf

http://www.thechessmind.net/blog/2010/1/30/a-brief-review-of-carsten-hansens-back-to-basics-openings.html