Well, I do not know any normal openings like that, but...
Nostalgia! There are tons of lines then you sacrifice a pawn for 2 bishops & activity in french variation I invented (not excatly).
Any black openings that will give me the bishop pair?
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Aug 1, 2015
0
#3
Yeah dude, no such thing, and even if there was, it's stupid to try to force a specific piece configuration at all cost.
You need to read an old book from the mid-90s, Bishop v Knight: The Verdict, by Steve Mayer.
And as for openings, a prime example of a mistake that people make:
Take the Berlin Defense:
Now, anybody that understands the Berlin at all should not be jumping for joy with the Bishop pair. Actually, Black would LOVE to trade that Dark-Squared BIshop for the White Knight! Here's why. The main difference between this and the Exchange Ruy is that White's e-pawn as already advanced to e5. It does not sit on e4. Therefore, White has made more of a commitment with his pawn. With it on e5 instead of e4, the main f5 break is harder to accomplish. White will almost always have to play f4 at some point to protect e5, and so if f4 is played, to get in f5, White often needs to play g4. This is where the "Berlin Wall" comes into play. Black wants to get in moves like ...h6 and ...c5, to stop Ng5 and Nd4, and put his prized Light-Squared Bishop on e6, and then, the fight is all about g4. If White can get in g4, he can roll Black over. Well, let's think about what can possible control g4. The Dark-Squared Bishops can't fight for g4 (a light square). Black has the Light-Squared Bishop and a Knight. White has the two Knights.
There are 2 common beginner mistakes made here.
The common beginner mistake for Black is to hone in and focus on having and maintaining the Bishop pair.
The common beginner mistake for White is play the inferior move Re1 shortly after the opening. If White makes this error, Black should immediately jump on the move ...Bb4. He does not need to take the Knight on the next move unless White moves the Rook out of the pin or plays something like a3, attacking the Bishop, but that Knight on c3 should not be allowed to move again without costing White material (i.e. moving the pinned knight and dropping the exchange).
If Black is allowed to exchange the Dark-Squared Bishop for the Knight on c3, he now has a two-on-one advantage of minor pieces that can control the g4 square and prevent g4 push by White.
In addition, because of the pawn structure, there are certain minor piece endings Black must avoid, and others that tend to favor him. In addition, usually Black's pawns on the Queenside will align via c7-b6-c5-a5, and White will have played a4 and c4. The big question is that b-pawn. White should not play b3 unless he has to, as that should be the move he keeps in his pocket if he needs to waste a tempo.
If White has already pushed b3, a4, and c4, and Black has either a Light-Squared Bishop vs a White Knight, Opposite Colored Bishops, or Knight for Bishop (White's Bishop will always be the Dark-Squared One), Black has excellent winning chances.
K+P endings, Pure Knight endings, Same Color Bishop endings, and White Knight vs Black Dark-Squared Bishop, are almost always winning for White, and are most certainly winning if White has a tempo move available, like c7-b6-a5-c5 vs a4-b2-c4. Without the free tempo move, Black has some chances at a draw. In the favorable endings for Black, that extra tempo move for White is often what gets him the draw.
There are a number of cardinal sins in the Berlin:
1) As mentioned before, White allows Black to pin the c3-Knight and trade off his Dark-Squared Bishop for it.
2) As mentioned before, Black tries to retain the Bishop pair at all cost. Ideally, he wants to rid his DSB for a Knight.
3) Black advances the back c-pawn to c6. This leads to a lost position in just about any endgame.
4) Black allows White's Dark-Squared Bishop to d8 in the endgame without being able to clean house and take White's Queenside pawns off the board. Without a Black passed pawn on the Queenside, allowing Bd8 by White in the endgame is always fatal. The h4-d8 diagonal is often a critical battle.
5) Black starts trying to race with his King to collect the White Queenside pawns. These races always work for White. Black needs to set up a fortress with his King and Pawns on the Kingside against White's Kingside pawn majority.
So yeah, you can often "achieve" the Bishop pair in the Berlin, but you sound like you want to then try to retain the Bishop pair at all cost, which is a losing proposition. Enjoy getting creamed!
Black can get the bishop pair in the Cambridge Springs variation but I was looking a for an opening a bit less dull. I try to get some advice on an opening, but got nothing but "wow look at me I'm such so smart" retorts.I've been playing and studying seriously for 20 years now and have read over 60 books, from My System to Tarrasch to Jeremy Silmans books. I have drawn a game 6 times with Fritz 13 when it thinks thinks for 2 minutes a move. Frankly this wesbite sucks and I'll have a look elsewhere online for information.
You're probably right to have a look elsewhere cel70, if you're that sensitive. Maybe we're just a little more accustomed to the rough and tumble ways of the forums. This was really pretty mild. Good luck to you anyway and I hope you find what you're looking for.
ThrillerFan wrote:
Yeah dude, no such thing, and even if there was, it's stupid to try to force a specific piece configuration at all cost.
You need to read an old book from the mid-90s, Bishop v Knight: The Verdict, by Steve Mayer.
And as for openings, a prime example of a mistake that people make:
Take the Berlin Defense:
Now, anybody that understands the Berlin at all should not be jumping for joy with the Bishop pair. Actually, Black would LOVE to trade that Dark-Squared BIshop for the White Knight! Here's why. The main difference between this and the Exchange Ruy is that White's e-pawn as already advanced to e5. It does not sit on e4. Therefore, White has made more of a commitment with his pawn. With it on e5 instead of e4, the main f5 break is harder to accomplish. White will almost always have to play f4 at some point to protect e5, and so if f4 is played, to get in f5, White often needs to play g4. This is where the "Berlin Wall" comes into play. Black wants to get in moves like ...h6 and ...c5, to stop Ng5 and Nd4, and put his prized Light-Squared Bishop on e6, and then, the fight is all about g4. If White can get in g4, he can roll Black over. Well, let's think about what can possible control g4. The Dark-Squared Bishops can't fight for g4 (a light square). Black has the Light-Squared Bishop and a Knight. White has the two Knights.
There are 2 common beginner mistakes made here.
The common beginner mistake for Black is to hone in and focus on having and maintaining the Bishop pair.
The common beginner mistake for White is play the inferior move Re1 shortly after the opening. If White makes this error, Black should immediately jump on the move ...Bb4. He does not need to take the Knight on the next move unless White moves the Rook out of the pin or plays something like a3, attacking the Bishop, but that Knight on c3 should not be allowed to move again without costing White material (i.e. moving the pinned knight and dropping the exchange).
If Black is allowed to exchange the Dark-Squared Bishop for the Knight on c3, he now has a two-on-one advantage of minor pieces that can control the g4 square and prevent g4 push by White.
In addition, because of the pawn structure, there are certain minor piece endings Black must avoid, and others that tend to favor him. In addition, usually Black's pawns on the Queenside will align via c7-b6-c5-a5, and White will have played a4 and c4. The big question is that b-pawn. White should not play b3 unless he has to, as that should be the move he keeps in his pocket if he needs to waste a tempo.
If White has already pushed b3, a4, and c4, and Black has either a Light-Squared Bishop vs a White Knight, Opposite Colored Bishops, or Knight for Bishop (White's Bishop will always be the Dark-Squared One), Black has excellent winning chances.
K+P endings, Pure Knight endings, Same Color Bishop endings, and White Knight vs Black Dark-Squared Bishop, are almost always winning for White, and are most certainly winning if White has a tempo move available, like c7-b6-a5-c5 vs a4-b2-c4. Without the free tempo move, Black has some chances at a draw. In the favorable endings for Black, that extra tempo move for White is often what gets him the draw.
There are a number of cardinal sins in the Berlin:
1) As mentioned before, White allows Black to pin the c3-Knight and trade off his Dark-Squared Bishop for it.
2) As mentioned before, Black tries to retain the Bishop pair at all cost. Ideally, he wants to rid his DSB for a Knight.
3) Black advances the back c-pawn to c6. This leads to a lost position in just about any endgame.
4) Black allows White's Dark-Squared Bishop to d8 in the endgame without being able to clean house and take White's Queenside pawns off the board. Without a Black passed pawn on the Queenside, allowing Bd8 by White in the endgame is always fatal. The h4-d8 diagonal is often a critical battle.
5) Black starts trying to race with his King to collect the White Queenside pawns. These races always work for White. Black needs to set up a fortress with his King and Pawns on the Kingside against White's Kingside pawn majority.
So yeah, you can often "achieve" the Bishop pair in the Berlin, but you sound like you want to then try to retain the Bishop pair at all cost, which is a losing proposition. Enjoy getting creamed!
What is so wrong with 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.O-O Nxe4 5.d4 Nd6 6.Bxc6 dxc6 7.dxe5 Nf5 8.Qxd8+ Kxd8 9.Nc3 Ke8 10.Re1 Bb4 11.Bd2 Bxc3 12.Bxc3?
cel70 wrote:
I have drawn a game 6 times with Fritz 13 when it thinks thinks for 2 minutes a move. Frankly this wesbite sucks and I'll have a look elsewhere online for information.
There's a line in the Botvinnik Semi-Slav (and I'm sure there are a number of others) that plays to a draw while still in the Fritz opening book. So in theory I could teach my non-chess-playing friend to 'draw against Fritz'.
Also it should be noted that Fritz is programmed to 'think' for longer than it needs, to make it a more realistic experience (and it bases its difficulty on your level of play). For example if it was playing at ultimate patzer level it could well think for 5 minutes then hang its queen.
Aug 2, 2015
0
#9
Arawn_of_Annuvin wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:
Yeah dude, no such thing, and even if there was, it's stupid to try to force a specific piece configuration at all cost.
You need to read an old book from the mid-90s, Bishop v Knight: The Verdict, by Steve Mayer.
And as for openings, a prime example of a mistake that people make:
Take the Berlin Defense:
Now, anybody that understands the Berlin at all should not be jumping for joy with the Bishop pair. Actually, Black would LOVE to trade that Dark-Squared BIshop for the White Knight! Here's why. The main difference between this and the Exchange Ruy is that White's e-pawn as already advanced to e5. It does not sit on e4. Therefore, White has made more of a commitment with his pawn. With it on e5 instead of e4, the main f5 break is harder to accomplish. White will almost always have to play f4 at some point to protect e5, and so if f4 is played, to get in f5, White often needs to play g4. This is where the "Berlin Wall" comes into play. Black wants to get in moves like ...h6 and ...c5, to stop Ng5 and Nd4, and put his prized Light-Squared Bishop on e6, and then, the fight is all about g4. If White can get in g4, he can roll Black over. Well, let's think about what can possible control g4. The Dark-Squared Bishops can't fight for g4 (a light square). Black has the Light-Squared Bishop and a Knight. White has the two Knights.
There are 2 common beginner mistakes made here.
The common beginner mistake for Black is to hone in and focus on having and maintaining the Bishop pair.
The common beginner mistake for White is play the inferior move Re1 shortly after the opening. If White makes this error, Black should immediately jump on the move ...Bb4. He does not need to take the Knight on the next move unless White moves the Rook out of the pin or plays something like a3, attacking the Bishop, but that Knight on c3 should not be allowed to move again without costing White material (i.e. moving the pinned knight and dropping the exchange).
If Black is allowed to exchange the Dark-Squared Bishop for the Knight on c3, he now has a two-on-one advantage of minor pieces that can control the g4 square and prevent g4 push by White.
In addition, because of the pawn structure, there are certain minor piece endings Black must avoid, and others that tend to favor him. In addition, usually Black's pawns on the Queenside will align via c7-b6-c5-a5, and White will have played a4 and c4. The big question is that b-pawn. White should not play b3 unless he has to, as that should be the move he keeps in his pocket if he needs to waste a tempo.
If White has already pushed b3, a4, and c4, and Black has either a Light-Squared Bishop vs a White Knight, Opposite Colored Bishops, or Knight for Bishop (White's Bishop will always be the Dark-Squared One), Black has excellent winning chances.
K+P endings, Pure Knight endings, Same Color Bishop endings, and White Knight vs Black Dark-Squared Bishop, are almost always winning for White, and are most certainly winning if White has a tempo move available, like c7-b6-a5-c5 vs a4-b2-c4. Without the free tempo move, Black has some chances at a draw. In the favorable endings for Black, that extra tempo move for White is often what gets him the draw.
There are a number of cardinal sins in the Berlin:
1) As mentioned before, White allows Black to pin the c3-Knight and trade off his Dark-Squared Bishop for it.
2) As mentioned before, Black tries to retain the Bishop pair at all cost. Ideally, he wants to rid his DSB for a Knight.
3) Black advances the back c-pawn to c6. This leads to a lost position in just about any endgame.
4) Black allows White's Dark-Squared Bishop to d8 in the endgame without being able to clean house and take White's Queenside pawns off the board. Without a Black passed pawn on the Queenside, allowing Bd8 by White in the endgame is always fatal. The h4-d8 diagonal is often a critical battle.
5) Black starts trying to race with his King to collect the White Queenside pawns. These races always work for White. Black needs to set up a fortress with his King and Pawns on the Kingside against White's Kingside pawn majority.
So yeah, you can often "achieve" the Bishop pair in the Berlin, but you sound like you want to then try to retain the Bishop pair at all cost, which is a losing proposition. Enjoy getting creamed!
What is so wrong with 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.O-O Nxe4 5.d4 Nd6 6.Bxc6 dxc6 7.dxe5 Nf5 8.Qxd8+ Kxd8 9.Nc3 Ke8 10.Re1 Bb4 11.Bd2 Bxc3 12.Bxc3?
The answer is in the post you replied to:
Aug 2, 2015
0
#10
I might also add that an option for Black in the post above is 12...c5 (to avoid Bb4+ when Black moves his King) intending 13...Be6, and if 14.Ng5, don't even move the Bishop, play 14...Ke7, connecting the Rooks, and if Black takes, take back with the King, blocking and stopping all possibilities of an e6 push by White to open up the Bishop to harass the g7-pawn. Trade the Rooks off the d-file, and Black again has the favorable Black Knight vs White Dark-Squared Bishop ending. He may not be able to get the full point, but should have at minimum a draw in the pocket!
Yes, even at the expense of having disadvantages too! I've been concentrating lately on minor piece play and would like to practice more with the bishop pair. Most of the black openings I play tend to inflict doubled pawns on white at the expense of surrendering the bishop pair, but lately I think I need to practice more with the bishops. Any advice?