jetfighter You make the mistake that you are going to find a new move very early in an opening which has been played probably for hundreds of years.
Do you think all the masters and grandmasters and super grandmasters would not have found your d5 suggestion if it were any good at all?
That they would overlook d5 but you would find it?
I did a little further analysis Qf5 instead of Qd8 is better. but its slightly worse for black.
jetfighter your line with 6. Qe2ch Be6 7. Qxe6ch Qxe6 is not "somewhat equal" It is clearly much better for White. Not only does White has the two bishops but he also has the better pawn structure. A good player would win that position vs just about anybody.
also regarding your other line:
Well I believe we should not dismiss jetfighter13 efforts here.
It is obvious jetfighter13 has been playing this line.
I believe the mainline 4...Bc5 is even and probably the best move by engines. However, I mean we are talking about human players here. The move 4...d5 would sure surpise the crap out of a few people. I mean it surpises me for example lol.
In truth they always say the goal of chess is to get a comfortable position you are familar with and your oppoent is not.
I have never seen 4...d5 before it seems interesting.
Is it the best? Probably not;however, who says a move has to be the best. What if we mix it up. What if in this position, we don't take the pawn right away.
Maybe this is another approach on how to play this line with 4...d5.
Here is My idea:
Phase 1
Take the strong center knight white has.
Phase 2
Try and goat white into giving up the bishop pair.
We are down a pawn. However, if we can get the bishop pair in an open position like this. Maybe that pawn loss is worth it.
or
Try and get faster development for the loss pawn.
Alot of gambit lines give up 1 pawn for faster development.
These are my forms of compensation I am having here. Maybe its losing against a computer. However, Its at least something to hang your hat on so to speak.
Here is how I would play it out.
With 6...Nf6 the d4 pawn is being threaten. If White does nothing maybe I can consider a queen trade here with Qxd4.
The below diagram is the first line I saw with 7.Bg5
With idea of given up the bishop pair by white to ruin blacks pawns.
Black will have ruin pawns but will have compensation in form of bishop pair.
The below diagram is the second line I saw with 7.c4
With idea of just protecting the d4 pawn.
Black will be down 1 pawn but will have compensation in form of faster development. The black knight and bishop are developed. Soon black will castle all white has is 2 pawns and 1 queen at moment. Maybe black can undermine with c6 in the future.
Again I normally play 4...Bc5 against the Scotch. However, I just saw nice idea's in the 4...d5 line jet was talking about.
What are you thoughts on these issues?
I mean Grand Masters strive to create imbalances which is what Jerry Silman talk about. An this line does create some imbalances for sure.
I gennerally play d5 because it works against so much that I figured whats wrong with it here.
just some basic analysis
X Player Come on, you should know better than that. The move d5 violates opening principals and is punished with correct play.
Just to give one of your lines:
X Player Come on, you should know better than that. The move d5 violates opening principals and is punished with correct play.
Just to give one of your lines:
Ponz I am not trying to agrue that the move 4...d5 is good.
I believe it is a bad move.
I believe 4...Bc5 is the best move and that is what I play.
What I was doing was just looking at a few lines and positions which seemed interesting.
As far as I can tell black doesn't get checkmated right off the bat with 4...d5. White does end up with an advantage though. If white does correct play, I would image white would win.
It was just an interesting move Jetfighter13 brought up.
I do not see any harm in looking at a couple of lines from this position. It is a subpar-variation ;however, some people play even worse lines than this one.
We are chess players after all. Surely we can talk about this line for fun.
7.Nc3 is a very solid move for sure. It defends the white extra pawn.
Black doesn't have alot of wiggle room. Hmmmmmmm
All I can see against 7.Nc3 is the move 7...Be7.
Maybe black has a very slim hope of getting the pawn back with the move c6.
White is up 1 pawn so its clear black has to try and agrue there is compensation for this loss.
The only compensations I can see at the moment are:
It seems like the white queen will have to move again sooner or later.
I don't see how white can castle faster than black.
Not alot of compensation which might be why it is not played alot in higher levels. However, I guess it just depends on how ambitious you are trying to be.
X Player. You usually post pretty fair analysis but I ponder why you think the 4. Nxd4 d5? line is anything but a very bad move. You should see that kind of move breaks opening principals.
In any event per your most recent attempt:
What opening principal does it break? It fights for the center, it opens up a piece for development, and it doesn't immediately lose material. about the only thing it doesn't do is help King safety.
It is a very principaled move in that respect, and Black isn't going down by a huge amount of material. about the only draw back is that black might be down a pawn for a long time or have a positional disadvantage, both of which take a long time to use and are very hard to use by all but expert players.
4...d5 looks ridiculous. Whatsup after the natural 5.Bb5?
The only way to justify all the previous crap is playing 9...f5.
If you don't mind, then fine, go on. I am not that brave...
What opening principal does it break? It fights for the center, actually it gives up the center as my analysis shows
it opens up a piece for development, better just to develop a piece
and it doesn't immediately lose material. actually it does very quickly lose material
about the only thing it doesn't do is help King safety.
It is a very principaled move in that respect, It is not "principaled" to play a move which leads to a lost game or nearly lost game.
and Black isn't going down by a huge amount of material. He is down by a clear pawn in most variations. Why play a variation like this?
about the only draw back is that black might be down a pawn for a long time or have a positional disadvantage, both of which take a long time to use and are very hard to use by all but expert players. They see it now as I have posted some of the variations. Now it is possible to gamble d5? as a trick which may catch some very weak players but if you are going to gamble like this, why not play something that should not lose quickly?
Gambling by making a bad move is possible but not so likely to succeed as gambling by making a good move or at least a move that cannot be refuted.
It is not very good chess to delibertly play something which violates opening principals and is inherently unsound.
@ ponz111: Nothing is new under the sun.
The move 4...d5 was mentioned back in 1949 by the great Paul Keres.
Barsky in his white repertoire book (by Chess Stars publishing) suggests meeting 4...d5 with 6.Bb5, and Dembo/ Palliser do the same.
presume [but do not know] you meant this line:
The only problem with 3. Nxe5 is that it loses immediately.
Get her outta the book ASAP....and then go bohemian on her. You'll thank me in the morning luv....
....
The only problem with 3. Nxe5 is that it loses immediately.
Yes, a minor inconvenience.
X Player. You usually post pretty fair analysis but I ponder why you think the 4. Nxd4 d5? line is anything but a very bad move.
Ponz111 I already said 5 times lol I believe 4...d5 is not a good move.
The reason I am looking over it is because it is a position I have never seen before and it seems interesting.
You might think im crazy Ponz but there does seem like some very funny dynamic potential here. It will lose against a strong player I believe.
However, It looks very interesting.
Totally unsound.
People shouldn't try this at home. However, You have to admit it. Very strange position.
I like the Classical variation better.
However, I haven't played 1...e5 in a long while. I have been playing the Sicilian or Caro more often.
jetfighter