X Player
Any way to get around this repotire
Sort:
UnusualMove wrote:
The idea of Bb4+ is obviously to force c3, but in this line
White plays c3 anyway, and Black didn't have to lose a tempo with Bf8-b4-c5. So what am I missing?
You have in those two cases "almost" the same position: In the first case you have an extra move, and the queen is on f6, while on the second the queen is on d8. Which is the better square of these two? I will let you guess...
Both Barsky and Dembo suggest 6.Nxc6 (instead of 6.Be3 which is met by 6...Bb6, and now white has tried 15(!) moves, but none of them seems to offer an advantage) 6...bxc6 7.Bd3 Qh4!? (7...Ne7 is the normal move, but it's a tad passive) 8.Qe2 Nf6 9.h3 0-0 (Dembo says 9...d6 is bad due to 10.e5, but the position after 10...Nd5 is really murky- I have not analysed it seriously so far) 10.g3 Qh5 11.g4 Qe5 12.g5, as played by Kasparov against Radjabov. Here black played the unfortunate 12...Nxe4, but after 12...Ne8 13.f3 Qe7, Dembo says that white has "a huge space advantage". Me says I gladly take Black anytime, and Stockfish says equal, or very slightly favorable to Black.
Exactly. Just either play 1. d4 or pull her into a Caro-Kann.
ponz111 wrote:
X Player
lol Well Ponz white has been winning several moves ago after gambitting up the d5 pawn at move 4 lol.
The question is if black can complicate the position enough to swindle themselves out.
Between the 2 variations I believe the first one would be considered the lesser of the 2 evils.
Hmmmmm
We are so close into making the move 4...d5 become the new modern theory.
We are so close yet so far away!
White is even in development with black.
Black is down 1 pawn with no compensation for the loss.
There has to be something we are missing.
I think I am going to go back to the below position.
Maybe this is the critical position.
I don't like 5...Qxd5 it feels like black is playing a weird Scandinavian line that has gone terribly wrong.
I tryed 5...Nxd4. I guess the below line is the better of the evil lines there. It seems like white is up 1 clear pawn though.
I suppose the only thing left would be to try a queen check at move 5 or a knight move.
Yeah I don't know. At least we give people something to think about. Maybe jetfighter13 will find some of these continuations useful.
X Player Or maybe you will see that 4. ...d5 is not only a bad move, it is a very bad move? It is not necessary to try and rehabilitate every idea that has been refuted.
If you can, more power to you. But if you cannot and failed each time, that should tell you something? [such as the move is a very bad move, not just a bad move]
This does not look so bad for Black- does it?
Bulgarian master Organdziev has played this as Black a few times with decent results.
But 5.Bb5 is entirely a different story: Black is in serious danger not coming out of the opening alive.
pfren I agree with you that 5. Bb5 is very strong and Black is in serious danger of not coming out of the opening alive.
Also, agree with you that the line you mention and the line Organdziev has played by Black a few times, is the best line for Black per the line I gave.
Ok. let's explore a little more...
I'm in the 4 .. Bc5 camp, with the follow up 5 .. Qf6. It works out pretty well for me at my club and in tournaments U1800.
Jun 25, 2015
0
#72
ignore Ng4 as a response. I just remembered it leaves g7 unprotected.
ponz111 wrote:
X Player Or maybe you will see that 4. ...d5 is not only a bad move, it is a very bad move? It is not necessary to try and rehabilitate every idea that has been refuted.
If you can, more power to you. But if you cannot and failed each time, that should tell you something? [such as the move is a very bad move, not just a bad move]
Ponz I am not an idiot.
If 4...d5 was a good move Grand Masters would be lining up at the door to play it. It would be main theory if it was a good move.
The fact of the matter is the move is not played alot by higher level players. In some databases they do not even give it as a option.
Jetfighter13 showed the move.
Instead of doing your approach of telling him his move is crap and showing him 1 diagram which wasn't very instructive.
I decided to go through the line just to see how it plays out for fun. It was a fun learning experience.
Rehabilitating every idea that has ever been refuted is necessary in the process of learning.
It teaches people to understand why it is refuted or it gives people the options to be creative in coming up with new idea's. That is the essence of chess.
If every1 would of stopped talking about the move 4...d5 at post 40 which is the below diagram you posted.
People would of missed out on all the other possible continuations. They would of also missed out on learning why it does bad in other continuations.
- In the above line we learned black is down the bishop pair and black has worse pawn structure.
- In the lines I looked at we learned black is down 1 pawn with no compensation.
The line we didn't go over was one IM pfren talked about.
If black play 5...dxe4.
Black loses a piece, loses the exchange, or at minimum loses the right to castle? I think.
Unless I am missing something we have to defend the knight some how.
jetfighter13 wrote:
ignore Ng4 as a response. I just remembered it leaves g7 unprotected.
This is not the only thing that does not make sense in your post:
an interesting line and it looks like Black has the upper hand. however Whites minors are concerning. Rook vs 2 minors here.
Even a child can understand here that Black is totally lost. What makes you think otherwise?
@ X_PLAYER_J_X: Your last line is not good, I'm afraid.
5.Bb5 dxe4 (the only serious option for Black) 6.Nxc6?! Qxd1+ 7.Kxd1 a6 followed by ...Bd7 and Black is certainly not worse.
The right approach is development with either 6.0-0 or 6.Nc3 when Black has serious problems.
@jetfighter13 White has two minor pieces for a rook and black doesn't even have a pawn for it. Obviously close to winning for white there
pfren wrote:
@ X_PLAYER_J_X: Your last line is not good, I'm afraid.
5.Bb5 dxe4 (the only serious option for Black) 6.Nxc6?! Qxd1+ 7.Kxd1 a6 followed by ...Bd7 and Black is certainly not worse.
The right approach is development with either 6.0-0 or 6.Nc3 when Black has serious problems.
Very nice Pfren. I was wondering If I was missing something there.
Yeah 7...a6 is a killer move. I totally missed it.
Fiveofswords wrote:
i think there has been way too mich focus on this ...d5 move. simply on principle black doesnt want to make such a wide open position when white can take full advantage of his extra tempo. the line given in the original post really is probably best and i think its more productive to become comfortable with playing black in that line than to take extreme and dubious attempts to avoid it.
There have been many lines mentioned. It would help if you would indicate which line you refer to and give a diagram.
Jun 27, 2015
0
#78
Well I guess I am wrong.
Either way it looks interesting in that. Its crazy but extremely dubious way and I have had fun playing it (which is really the only reason I play chess)
jetfighter13 wrote:
Well I guess I am wrong.
Either way it looks interesting in that. Its crazy but extremely dubious way and I have had fun playing it (which is really the only reason I play chess)
The main reason it is dubious is because the position is getting blown open. An black is often behind in king safety in most of those cases. White has faster king side castling chances in most of the 1.e4 lines. This coupled with most of whites natural developing moves causes black problems.
If you check post #78 Pfren did mention a line a Bulgarian master has played with the reply 4...d5.
I believe that gives you something to try perhaps.
However, I personally like the 4...Bc5 which has a very kool variation in it.
After 4...Bc5 white has a few moves they can play against this continuation. A few moves white can try here have been.
5.Be3
5.Nxc6
5.Nb3
The variation I am going to talk about is one of my favorite lines to play as black.
The line I am going to be talking about happens after white plays 5.Nxc6. Which isn't the greatest of moves I believe. However, it is a playable move by white.
The move I play is actually very kool. It is the best move as well. I will show you the move.
What? I didn't take the knight? What on earth is this line?
Its called the Intermezzo Variation OOOOOOOO everyone loves the Intermezzo Variation.
ECO code C45 Scotch Game/Classical Variation/Intermezzo Variation
THAN YOU SEE WHY THE KNIGHT CAN NOT MOVE FOR IT IS A MATE IN 1 THREAT Qxf2# HAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHA.
Qf6 threatens mate in 1 and also moves the queen away from d8. So that way if black plays dxc6 white can not play QxQ KxQ leaving the black king in the center of the board.
Than that is when the magic happens in your mind. You understand why Qf6 is played.
Perhaps the Miles variation (4...Bb4+!? 5.c3 Bc5) can't be called offbeat, since it has been occasionally played by "a few" 2700+ players (Kramnik, Aronian, Vitugov, Vallejo...) but it's an excellent way to meet the Scotch without having to read a lot.
The idea of Bb4+ is obviously to force c3, but in this line
White plays c3 anyway, and Black didn't have to lose a tempo with Bf8-b4-c5. So what am I missing?