Attacking the Caro-Kann.

I read something about the fantasy in Jon Speelman's book which says that as long as black doesn't try the dxe4 fxe4 e5 variation, which gives white good compensation, then black should be ok.

I still advise playing the Panov attack.

 Ya I think I will stay away from the fantasy variation, atleast in long or correspondence games. I have never understood why the panov is so good though, I have heard alot of people say it is dangerous and have seen it used well in high level games, but strategically trading my e4 pawn for blacks c6 pawn followed by giving myself an IQP doesn't seem to make alot of sense. Are white's attacking chances really that good?

I look at it as white getting a balanced attack on the whole board with a focus on the kingside - unlike some positions where one side has a clear superiority on one side and the other side on the other.

White gets free-er development for his pieces, usually gets the e5 square for the knight. One of the keys is not to trade off the minor pieces "for no reason". Each pair of minor pieces that gets traded shifts things over to black. You've got to get something for the trade (more space, bishop pair, tempo, change in pawn structure, etc.) if you're going to do it.

Lastly, the panov attack often reaches positions more commonly classified as from the Nimzo-Indian or the Queen's Gambit Tarrasch.

Doubly lastly, here are some comments on tempi in the Panov attack. I'm going to paraphrase Jon Speelman in his book on the Caro. White is basically playing a Tarrasch Defense to the QGD with an extra tempo. So, if black's position really were all that good, he should be able to play the line with ...g6, which on the white side is the best setup against the Tarrasch. But because he's down a tempo, playing ...g6 involves a pawn sacrifice. It is not clear that black can forcefully win back the pawn, and even if he does he often ends up with a poor position. Therefore black usually chooses to play a line without ...g6 (such as playing ...e6) but in these lines white gets "normal" play for the isolani.

And here is my own observation: Tempi are so important in this opening that if black just plays dxc4 right away (without the typical wait for white to play Bd3 first) then black is much worse. It is odd that if a tempo goes to black (i.e. a regular Tarrasch, then black is better, if another tempo goes to white (via dxc4 without Bd3) then black is much worse, and with the normal Panov, white has the "regular Panov edge".

Of course there is no really good plan against the Caro-Kann, but you can investigate the early f4 lines in the Classical. Opposite wing castling in the main lines is interesting too. But wehatever yo9u try, Black is fine, following advice in Houska's book or mine.

The lines where White plays Ne2-f4 are tricky and highly  practical. No more than equality, but I think that is all you are after.

Alright, thanks for the explanations and ideas guys. I am very interested in doing some analysis on the panov attack and isolated queen pawn positions in general. I have not completely given up the mainline yet, I may look into the Ne2-f4 lines, I remember Tal played that a couple times in his world championship match with Botvinnik and it led to some interesting stuff.

Mr. Schiller,

Good to have you on board!

Extremely informative thread!  One of the best I've read on this site.  Thanks very much for the insightful comments.

I used to play the Caro-Kann alot with black. My opponents rarely get into the Panov attack, they prefer the advance variation most of the times. Here's my experience with it (from the white side). Early f4 is a common idea. Nf3 is playable as well. I believe white's attack revolves around the move f5 and the consequently weakened e6 pawn, which I have always found to be a problem. The f5 advance is often sustained by the queen on d3 (or, if black plays c4, d2). Also, it is possible for white to maneuver his b1 knight towards the kingside, I've seen this very often as well. Rook invasions on f7 after the exchange on e6 are a common theme as well. Also, one line I am really afraid of, as black, is the following:

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4. g4!

Bear that in mind as an alternative as well. Hope this is of any use.

Why is everybody giving the f3 system such a hard time?? When played the right way, it is a good way to meet the caro kann. Just one example:

Oh well i had recently a very nice game (Cora Kann:ulysses)
http://blog.chess.com/PeterArt/black-defense-and-attack

It was verry tactical Dough easy to play i ended with a real strong defense base.
From which I finaly checkmated white.

My opinion on the ideas mentioned here:

1. An early f4 by white is very weak. Usually it can be met by some combination of h5 and Ng8-h6-f5 or Ng8-e7-f5. Black can also choose to play g6.
2. In my games, white almost never gets a chance to play f5. I agree that f4 would be strong if white can get f5 in, but it just doesn't work out that way for white, in my games.
3. Against 4.g4 mentioned above, I also think of this as a weak move. I usually retreat the bishop to d7, and play Qc8 and h5. If white sees this coming then h5 is a pawn sac by black, to reassert control over the light squares. If white does not see it coming, then h5 seizes the initiative.
4. Apparently there are many lines involving 4.g4 Bg6 5.e6, but these have never been "my cup of tea". I read somewhere else on this site that black "is ok after 5. ... Qd6" but again, I prefer to play 4. ... Bd7.

I don't think that 1.e4 c6 2.Ke2 is a very good opening.

In my blog I have posted some games with the advance variation. Don't be fooled by the head line "Caro-Kann, Advance Variation, winning against white pawn storms" because even I won those games with the black pieces you can see from the games that there were great chances for white as well as for black:

http://blog.chess.com/BlueKnightShade/caro-kann-advance-variation-winning-against-white-pawn-storms

I use the fantasy variation.  As for the varation e4 c6 d4 d5 f3 e6 Nc3 Bb4, here is a game I played 2 days ago.

I agree with you. though I play the quick 2. c4! instead. I'm anticipating this weird Caro-kann move if ever

or if you want the ultra solid attacking opening against it,The King's IndiaN Attack still works.

interesting reading here ... i like this style of play and i'm going to do some reading.

i might come back with a request for a few games to try it out. ;)

 Scoffing at the panov which scores 56% for white ?

Laughing derisively at the fantasy and its 60% ?!

You show more respect for the advance which is the lowest scoring of the 3 variants at 54% ? 

I suspect you havent faced many strong players on the white side of these variations that you dismiss.

Estragon, if you have a cure against the Panov-Botvinnik, please share it. As a Caro-Kann practitioner (from time to time at least) I find it most difficult to play against.

no one has suggested this yet

 Lets clear a few things up here first. The statistics I quoted are from Chess Assistant and not really "mine".  That the statistics ( from CA ) dont match your "experience " is rather odd. Which do you think is more meaningful/reliable to most serious chess players ?  Your personal "experience" or statistics gathered from millions of competitive games ?  As for what I do or do not play how do you know ?  Your "experience" here seems extremely limited so what "experience" are you talking about exactly ? As for what elite GMs play.... how many of the elite GMs even play the caro kann anymore ? It seems not many , so what does this mean ?  It seems you dont understand that openings are often very much like "fashion" and change with the times/players. Just because a certain opening isnt played by elite players doesnt necessarily mean it isnt good.

The PB ( panov-botvinnik) isnt being played a lot at the elite level for various reasons I suspect : A) it seems 1e4 is not as popular as 1d4  at the elite level currently and B) when 1 e4 is played you dont see a CK in response nearly as often as you see other responses.

Another thing you dont seem to understand is the way elite chess differs from what we play with mostly open events. Elite players normally play in closed RR events in which they strive (normally) to win with white and draw with black and avoid any unnecessary risks , with both colors. A line like the fantasy involves a LOT of risk so naturally its going to be rejected out of hand by an elite GM facing another elite GM. Does a line that involves a lot of risk mean its bad ? For them, yes, its a bad choice as a draw is ok against a fellow elite GM and the fantasy is certainly NOT a drawish line. A risky line usually means more decisive games and fewer draws and this is the kind of chess (risk taking ) that is more suited for Open events and NOT closed elite events.