Bishop's Opening: Why 3. d3 instead of 3. Nc3?
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good gracious- there is a frankenstein dracula?- this openings study is like the rabbit hole in "alice and wonderland"
Jul 21, 2017
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#22
daxypoo wrote:
good gracious- there is a frankenstein dracula?- this openings study is like the rabbit hole in "alice and wonderland"
In a world where there's a toilet variation I'm not surprised lol.
3. Nc3 also allows 3...Bb4, essentially negating white's potential advantage. White has to either still play 4. d3, or the passive and awkward 4. Nge2, or sharper 4. Nf3, or 4. Nd5 with the exchange - in each case, black either gets a somewhat drawish position, or gets a strong counterplay.
3. d3 seems a bit more flexible: depending on what black plays, white can get a position more to his liking. He can play for the f4 pawn break, for example, something the 3. Nc3 Bb4 line makes harder to implement.
And, of course, Frankenstein-Dracula is not everyone's cup of tea. 
3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Nge2 isn't all that awkward. White will get the type of position he wants (being able to play f4), which is what he is aiming for with the Vienna lines in general. It is probably just equal, but it won't be something Black will have studied in depth and White will probably have more experience in the resulting positions.
Aug 7, 2017
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#25
Firethorn15 wrote:
3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Nge2 isn't all that awkward. White will get the type of position he wants (being able to play f4), which is what he is aiming for with the Vienna lines in general. It is probably just equal, but it won't be something Black will have studied in depth and White will probably have more experience in the resulting positions.
It looks pretty normal to me. After 4...O-O if White plays 5.O-O then 5...Nxe4 just leads to typical positions and if 5.d3 d5 6.ed Nxd5 7.O-O Nxc3 8.bc Bd6 9.f4 is just some kind of Scotch four knights with colors reversed where the e-pawn is getting traded off for an f-pawn rather than a d-pawn so White's structure in the center is a little different.
Aug 7, 2017
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#26
greekgift1984 wrote:
3..Bb4 is not really strong... 4. Nf3 and if Nc6 then 5 . Nd5! Followed by c3 and d4.
It's very interesting because 5.Nd5 can be met with 5...O-O when Black wants to try and get some play for the two bishops. You can get a similar positions in the English and it can get really sharp there.
3.Nc3 allows 3 ... Nxe4, which equalises for black. There are very simple variations where white bails out early and which are draws, as well as a couple of extremely complex variations where, if black knows his stuff, white isn't winning. In any case, 3. Nc3 is no longer the Bishop's Opening, since white has transposed to the Vienna Game. That latter fact is a sufficient answer to the O.P. in itself.
<<3. Nc3 also allows 3...Bb4, essentially negating white's potential advantage.>>
This, by the way, is incorrect. It's a Vienna variant and not particularly good for black. White can always play 4. Nge2 but other interesting lines are possible.
Aug 7, 2017
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#29
Optimissed wrote:
3. Nc3 is no longer the Bishop's Opening, since white has transposed to the Vienna Game. That latter fact is a sufficient answer to the O.P. in itself.
Not really. If I'm playing Black against the Bishop's Opening, whether an opponent plays 3. Nc3 or 3. d3, I don't care what the opening is called: I just want to know what move to play. Now, thanks to all the people responding here, I realize I could play 3...Nxe4 instead of just developing with the usual moves ...Bc5, ...Nc6, ...d6. That gives me another option to consider since it might be considered a kind of refutation.
Sqod wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
3. Nc3 is no longer the Bishop's Opening, since white has transposed to the Vienna Game. That latter fact is a sufficient answer to the O.P. in itself.
Not really. If I'm playing Black against the Bishop's Opening, whether an opponent plays 3. Nc3 or 3. d3, I don't care what the opening is called: I just want to know what move to play. Now, thanks to all the people responding here, I realize I could play 3...Nxe4 instead of just developing with the usual moves ...Bc5, ...Nc6, ...d6. That gives me another option to consider since it might be considered a kind of refutation.>>
White usually plays the Bishop's opening because he prefers it to the Vienna and not because he wants to transpose into the Vienna. It's nothing to do with what it's called. You might try harder to understand what is being said.
The variation called the Frankenstein-Dracula isn't bad for white in particular, but it allows black to get the game he might want. So it isn't a refutation so much as a diversion. In particular, in the Vienna, white can apply pressure for quite a while and it's a good drawing weapon against stronger players, so a stronger black may use the option being discussed.
Mar 30, 2025
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#31
Firethorn15 wrote:
3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Nge2 isn't all that awkward. White will get the type of position he wants (being able to play f4), which is what he is aiming for with the Vienna lines in general. It is probably just equal, but it won't be something Black will have studied in depth and White will probably have more experience in the resulting positions.
Nge2 runs into ...Nxe4 and white is practically worse.
Mar 30, 2025
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#32
nc3 allows the near instant equalizer Nxe4 Nxe4 d5!. Also d3 prepares the possibility of f4 which is one of the desirable qualities of the bishops opening without gambiting the pawn. Last, they are some lines where white may want to play c3 for to prepare either d4 or b4 (to kick a c5 bishop).
Mar 30, 2025
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#33
Sqod wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
3. Nc3 is no longer the Bishop's Opening, since white has transposed to the Vienna Game. That latter fact is a sufficient answer to the O.P. in itself.
Not really. If I'm playing Black against the Bishop's Opening, whether an opponent plays 3. Nc3 or 3. d3, I don't care what the opening is called: I just want to know what move to play. Now, thanks to all the people responding here, I realize I could play 3...Nxe4 instead of just developing with the usual moves ...Bc5, ...Nc6, ...d6. That gives me another option to consider since it might be considered a kind of refutation.
there is a lot of contested territory between the bishops opening and the vienna game as they are plenty of transpositional possibilities (both, try to refrain from playing nf3 too early, both try to play or at least keep the possibility of f4 etc) Sometimes, 3.nc3 is called the bishop's opening /vienna game hybrid for this reason.
Mar 31, 2025
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#34
darkunorthodox88 wrote:
nc3 allows the near instant equalizer Nxe4 Nxe4 d5!. Also d3 prepares the possibility of f4 which is one of the desirable qualities of the bishops opening without gambiting the pawn. Last, they are some lines where white may want to play c3 for to prepare either d4 or b4 (to kick a c5 bishop).
nxe4 is a bad reply from white, unless your opening knowledge is from 1920, it is well known the correct response is Qh5, which was found in the time of Alekhine
Apr 1, 2025
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#35
BugMeLater wrote:
darkunorthodox88 wrote:
nc3 allows the near instant equalizer Nxe4 Nxe4 d5!. Also d3 prepares the possibility of f4 which is one of the desirable qualities of the bishops opening without gambiting the pawn. Last, they are some lines where white may want to play c3 for to prepare either d4 or b4 (to kick a c5 bishop).
nxe4 is a bad reply from white, unless your opening knowledge is from 1920, it is well known the correct response is Qh5, which was found in the time of Alekhine
it is dead equal. in fact after after qh5 black outscores white in master games. my point is why this line of the vienna is not popular and this line doesnt change that (yes its better than nxe4 so what?