The main line of the looks like this:'
Black playing e5 in the Sicilian
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After 5.Nb5 black has two main moves-5...a6 and 5...d6, as 5...Nf6 is a transposition to the Sveshnikov. 5...a6 6...Nd6+ is not considered entirely satisfactory for black, but it's rather complicated and can certainly be played on amateur level. 5...d6 is the Kalashnikov. If you play 6.N1c3 a6 7.Na3 b5 8.Nd5 then black has 8...Nge7 and Nce7, along with 8...Nf6, when you can play 9.Bg5 and transpose to the Sveshnikov. However, if you prefer 9.Bxf6 vs the Sveshnikov and don't want to give 9.Bg5 a try, you can play 9.c4 in that position.
Thanks everyone. I prefer FiveSwords suggestion. The main line looks a bit complicated for me to remember.
Black actually has a backward pawn in the mainline though, that's why this was though unplayable for years before Sveshnikov revived it. If white plays Nf3-d4-f3 instead Black is actually ahead in development.
Neither do I; lately I play Kopec system but the point of Nb5 is to force Black to play d6 making the backward pawn and it is an accomplishment when White can put a piece in the outpost, support it, and have the square for the entire game. White isn't getting that by retreating the Knight and no Black is ahead in development at that point. Look at your diagram on move 6. Both sides have a pawn in the center. White has a Knight on f3. Black has a Knight on f6 and c6. It's White to move so after White's move both sides have the same development, but that is the position Black is normally in the opening. White did lose time by moving the Knight forward and back.
I haven't laughed so hard in days man.
Man this forum is funny!
You have some haters on this forum ChristopherZiffo.
They are pretty funny though have to admit lol.
Well ChristopherZiffo all I can say is I play 2 lines against 2...Nc6.
The funny thing is the 2 lines I play haven't even been mentioned on this forum.
Which is pretty funny lol.
The 1 line I play does not relate to this thread.
However, I will show it case you are wondering what it was!
The line is called The Rossolimo Attack
Yeah the line has been played in high level. Actually it is a popular line.
I do believe it is a very simple line to play.
It has some theory. All lines have theory of course.
However, I do not thing the theory is as extreme as the Open Sicilian lines.
So the above is the first line which I have been playing lately against 2...Nc6.
Yeah it was a line recommended to me by a player who talks on forum named Ponz.
Yeah it is a nice little line for sure.
I like to try out other lines from time to time and since someone gave it a mention to me I figured I would try it.
As it turns out I kind of like it! Not to bad lol!
The other line which I like to play fits in with your forum topic question.
Ok it doesn't *really* force d6 but going out of one's way moving the king a few times or playing the Lowenthal (which is probably better than the game in #21?) seem to involve consessions by the 2nd player as well.
At the risk of continuing the argument with Five, open lines are not the same as development. In the position I said Black was ahead Black has two pieces out, White has one. Open lines are good for development, sure, and if both sides had the same number of pieces out you could say that White is not yet ahead in development but will develop smoother because of the open lines, but Black actually does have an extra piece out in the positions in question. (That's not saying Nb5 does better for White's development, Nb5 does all of the other things, nearly forces the pawn weakness on d6.)
Well I do not think people are being agruementative.
I think the problem is everyone has there own special line against this continuation.
It seems clear to me in post #3 FOS has his own pet line.
However, I could say the same for post #4 & 5.
Different ways of playing it seems.
Obviously everyone will be one sided.
I know I am one sided because I love my line better! lol
ChristopherZiffo wrote:
Thanks everyone. I prefer FiveSwords suggestion. The main line looks a bit complicated for me to remember.
I guess that if you find a good video or comment about the opening it will be a lot easier for you to remember, if you get the plans it will be more natural to find the right moves.
the first video I got with google...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JkUSGuE3VA
People have been giving Fiveofswords a harder time than I think is warranted here, and maybe Nf3 is a practical choice to avoid theory. Most people avoid the entire Open Sicilian if that's their goal but the fact that his move is written off quickly in every book can mean the opponent might be on their own and not know how to face it. That said, Five is overselling his move by analyzing some pretty bad play by Black against it and showing White having the normal trumps without having to get the Knight chased back.
anyway back to the OP question, maybe if you don't like the position you may try to not enter into it, there's way to avoid it you may try with c3 or even b3 (this one is not really common)
In this situation I think I would go with Nb5 next, if I played white. Depending on what move black played next, I would then go with N1c3.
Peppinu wrote:
5.Nb5 is the critical move in this line and the Open Sicilian is crucial in getting an advantage as an e4 player.
FiveofSwords is being his usual argumentative self...
What do you expect from a B player (1776) that has played a whopping 20 games that count (Chess.com games are utter cr*p - over the board is where skill is proven)? Arguments that inferior lines are so much better because there's less theory!
Those delusional B-players that think whatever they play is top notch and proven main lines are inferior.
At least I admit that I don't necessarily play the best line against everything. I play it because it works, not because it's so great and is what I would advise others to play.
One of my pet lines is the Prins variation of the Sicilian (1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.f3). Does that make it the best line in all of chess? Hell No! It simply works for me though.
And there inlies the difference between those on the brink of reaching master, like myself, and the delusional B-players that think their lines are better than anything a GM has played, like FofS.
I prefer lines recommended by delusional near-masters as absolutely and unequivocally equalizing in a major opening variation starting on move 3 despite that variation being played by world champions.
PFREN VS. FIVEOFSWORDS!!!! A BATTLE IN THE OPENING!
FINAL SCORE: PFREN WINS 12-0!!!
Why am I not surprised?
5.Nb5 is the only way to take advantage of the fact that d6 is a weak square that can't be defended by pawns and allows White to play Nd6+ and win the bishop pair.
So Black usually has a choice of deciding what to do:
A) allow White to play Nd6+ and try to take advantage of White's multiple knight moves by getting farther ahead in development and trying to gain an initiative against White's underdeveloped position; Even if the queens are traded in these positions Black can still have an initiative. One idea is 5...a6 6.Nd6+ Bxd6 7.Qxd6 Qf6 when Black hopes that his initiative will prevent White from being able to use the bishop pair effectively. 8.Qd1!? is actually a mainline that shows that Black's idea can be strong although I think White is supposed to be better here.
B) Play 5...d6 and prevent Nd6+ but allow White to play 6.c4 and instead play against the weak d5 square. which also can't be protected by pawns. This is a more popular and safer way of playing although sooner or later Black will try to find tactical chances to take advantage of White's multiple knight moves.
Tbh I just play something other than 2...Nc6 3.d4 in the opening because the positions can get more complicated out of the opening than I like.
Fiveofswords wrote:
well people are being belligerent, not simply argumentative (thanks to pfrens unhealthy obsession with me). Nf3 is not at all my pet line i would never even play 2 nf3. Its just the move i recommended. How bout he try out both and keep us updated on his performance with them? Cause i would wager money he performs better with my suggestion.
Yeah I get it now.
You tryed to make a harmless recommendation to go along with the OP not wanting to deal with alot of theory.
Than Pfren saw his chance to jump out of the closet and prove you wrong.
Yeah he saw his chance to show the world how much of a "Class B player" you are as he likes to call it.
Than naturally you got p*ssed off at Pfren and tryed to defend yourself.
Even though you do not truly play this move.
All I can say is laugh man!
You just have to laugh at situations like this.
P-KN5 wrote:
5.Nb5 is the only way to take advantage of the fact that d6 is a weak square that can't be defended by pawns and allows White to play Nd6+ and win the bishop pair.
So Black usually has a choice of deciding what to do:
A) allow White to play Nd6+ and try to take advantage of White's multiple knight moves by getting farther ahead in development and trying to gain an initiative against White's underdeveloped position; Even if the queens are traded in these positions Black can still have an initiative. One idea is 5...Nf6 6.Nd6+ Bxd6 7.Qxd6 Qe7 when Black hopes that his initiative will prevent White from being able to use the bishop pair effectively. 8.Qd1!? is actually a mainline that shows that Black's idea can be strong although I think White is supposed to be better here.
B) Play 5...d6 and prevent Nd6+ but allow White to play 6.Bg5 and instead play against the weak d5 square. which also can't be protected by pawns. This is a more popular and safer way of playing although sooner or later Black will try to find tactical chances to take advantage of White's multiple knight moves.
Tbh I just play something other than 2...Nc6 3.d4 in the opening because the positions can get more complicated out of the opening than I like.
I think you are missing a few moves buddy in the above red text I have highlighted.
However, It is actually very easy to miss.
The reason is because it requires you to have some deeper knowledge of these lines.
I will explain what you are missing in the red text!
The answer to your continuation has already been answered by FM JMB2010 Post #5
I will quote what he said so you can see it.
"5...Nf6 is a transposition to the Sveshnikov."
I will show you what the Sveshnikov looks like.
Now the above line is the Sveshnikov.
Why is a FM saying the line will tranpose into the Sveshnikov?
Answering the above question in orange will help you understand what you are missing.
Look at the other diagram now below.
In the above position the FM is saying after the move 5...Nf6 the line will tranpose into the Sveshnikov!
For it to tranpose into the Sveshnikov white has to play the move 6.N1c3
Which means if white's best option is 6.N1c3 there is something wrong with other moves!
To understand what is wrong figure out what the move 5...Nf6 is doing and figure out what the move 6.N1c3 is doing.
Well the move 5...Nf6 is hitting the d5 square and the e4 pawn.
The move 6.N1c3 is contesting the d5 square and defending the e4 pawn
Thus, What is wrong with 6.Nd6+?
Do you see the problem with it? Look below
If you play 6.Nd6+ black will give up the bishop pair; however, they will be up 1 pawn.
Plenty of compensation for black.
In fact, the knight is hitting the queen on d6 with tempo and the pawn which black has taking is a center pawn.
White is probably lost in this position.
As for the text in blue I have highlighted.
The above position is probably equal.
I think I would prefer playing the black side lol.
I would rather have the 2 minor pieces vs 1 rook + 1 pawn.
Usually the 2 minor pieces can be stronger.
However, the line is playable if you like it from the white side than you can play it for sure!
I prefer the move 6.c4
Setting up The Macrozy Bind.
What are the main lines after this sequences of moves? Taking the knight on c6 just allows Black to develop.
Nf5 looks untidy.
Nb5 doesnt seem great to me but maybe I am missing something. White can get the Queen lodged in d6 but it is fairly easy for black to push it away.
Nf3 seems like a retreat and will lead to a very symmetrical board with four knights.
Nb3 is a move I have played a lot, but it has problems when I put the second knight on c3 and the white squared bishop on c4- very easy for black to attack those pieces.