Classical players don't understand Hypermodern openings

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Avatar of Optimissed

Nimzowitsch came up with the idea of the Blockade via the pieces in the Advance French.  Sveshnikov followed up on that same strategy.  So since Nimzowitsch played the Advance French as White, and everything Nimzowitsch does to you is hypermodern strategy, I guess playing the White side of the Advance French must be hypermodern strategy, huh?>>

Louis Paulsen, not Nimzowitsch, wasn't it?

Avatar of ThrillerFan
Optimissed wrote:

If the head coach of the New York Knicks had invented the Pick-n-Roll, and in a play against the Chicago Bulls, they execute the Low Post, is the low post now the Pick-n-Roll suddenly?  No!>>

Couldn't you have exemplified with something comprehensible, like cricket?

 

No because the idiot that tried to claim anything Nimzowitsch did must be hypermodern strategy was an American, so I had to use an American sport (basketball) as an example.  Also, unlike cricket, basketball is an Olympic sport and is therefore played internationally, unlike football (not to be confused with futbol, which we call soccer).

 

Nobody in America plays or gives two hoots about cricket!  In America, cricket is a very loud insect that resides outdoors and nothing else!

Avatar of ThrillerFan
Optimissed wrote:

Nimzowitsch came up with the idea of the Blockade via the pieces in the Advance French.  Sveshnikov followed up on that same strategy.  So since Nimzowitsch played the Advance French as White, and everything Nimzowitsch does to you is hypermodern strategy, I guess playing the White side of the Advance French must be hypermodern strategy, huh?>>

Louis Paulsen, not Nimzowitsch, wasn't it?

 

Wrong!

Paulsen came up with the idea of the blockade via maintaining pawns there.

Nimzowitsch and Sveshnikov came up with the idea that it is fine for White to remove the pawns (via dxc5 or exf6) and maintain the blockade via either pieces occupying those squares, or in some cases pieces merely controlling those squares.

 

Paulsen barely scored 50% trying to hold the pawns there.  Nimzowitsch and Sveshnikov have scored significantly higher by using the minor pieces to execute the blockade!

Avatar of Optimissed

<<Nobody in America plays or gives two hoots about cricket!  In America, cricket is a very loud insect that resides outdoors and nothing else!>>

That must be a terrible situation to endure. You must realise, though, that you're outnumbered. Pakistan, India, Australia, NZ, South Africa, most of the Caribbean, Papua New Guinea, Afghanistan, UK. The list goes on and on. They're even playing it in Japan.

OK fair enough explanation. Peace out even to non-cricket-lovers.

Avatar of Optimissed

<<Paulsen barely scored 50% trying to hold the pawns there.  Nimzowitsch and Sveshnikov have scored significantly higher by using the minor pieces to execute the blockade!>>

Yes but he was the pioneer of the Advance variation, maybe 40 years before Nimzo. And you will admit it isn't easy. I believe in 4. dc by white. I quite like it.

Avatar of ThrillerFan

But again, their approach to the blockade was apples to oranges.  White cannot really hold the center merely trying to keep pawns there.  For instance, f4 cannot be played fast enough to maintain the pawn center.  Playing 5.f4 early on before Nf3 fails for tactical reasons due to the weakening of the a7-g1 diagonal which has tactical consequences on d4.

 

For this reason, Nimzowitsch came up with the right way to execute the blockade - via the White pieces!

Avatar of Optimissed

That fits in to the general idea of optimising piece development and activity.

The Advance French was the first opening I ever studied in great depth. I analysed it by myself, based on games with someone who had been a very strong player. He played the French and the Slav, and the Veresov-Richter with 4. f3 as white. We played hundreds of games. I played the Meran against his Slav. Or at least, he did. Same thing. I came to learn Tal's sacrifice against 4. f3. But most of our games were French Advance Variation. I preferred 6. Be2 but became quite good at playing it. Then I decided that I didn't like 4. c3 and so I started to take, with 4. ...dc. In that line, white uses pieces to blockade.

Avatar of Laskersnephew

"Couldn't you have exemplified with something comprehensible, like cricket?"

Hear! Hear! If you'd used terms like "Mid wicket," "Square-leg," and "Silly mid-on" I would have twigged your meaning right off

Avatar of Optimissed

Quite right. The batsman is out leg before without playing a shot, so even though it pitched outside the line, he's out and the next one comes in. The bowler comes in and bowls a Yorker and the batsman only just digs it out. It nearly got him. The next one's a Chinaman. Impossible to read. Somehow gets through the gap and misses leg stump by a whisker. From that, you'll know that the bowler's left handed, the batsman's right handed and the umpire is holding the bowler's hat.

Avatar of Laskersnephew

Best description of the Sveshnikov Sicilian I have ever read!

 

Avatar of rpkgs
Optimissed wrote:

Quite right. The batsman is out leg before without playing a shot, so even though it pitched outside the line, he's out and the next one comes in. The bowler comes in and bowls a Yorker and the batsman only just digs it out. It nearly got him. The next one's a Chinaman. Impossible to read. Somehow gets through the gap and misses leg stump by a whisker. From that, you'll know that the bowler's left handed, the batsman's right handed and the umpire is holding the bowler's hat.

Sums up chess perfectly 

Avatar of TestPatzer
Dsmith42 wrote:

@Optimissed - Thanks for making my point.  You think taking the pawn is fine because you don't know hypermodern theory.  It's not OK, it's a waste of tempo, which for black (who starts the game a tempo behind) is often fatal.  Black can't hold on to the gambit pawn (the Queen's gambit is not a true gambit), and white gets to make a developing move when he recaptures.

The QGA is awful for black.  Whatever theory holds that it is OK is wrong.  Black is unambiguously weaker for having played dxc4.

Chess is more complex than basic principles.

To make snap judgments based on a single move is something that only short-sighted players do. Don't fall into that trap!

Such players tend cling to such statements like "don't capture away from the center!" and "a knight on the rim is dim!", and they assume (often wrongly) that this means they should never be allowed to ever make such a move.

But to truly evaluate a move, you have to look past simple principles and actually delve into the strongest possible lines that follow the move. That's what "theory" is.

Theory is the strongest known continuations, after a specific move.

Principles are what beginners use to guide their move choices. Theory is what masters use to guide their move choices.

Modern theory shows that Black is fine after 2...d5xc4. Otherwise, players like Kasparov and Carlsen wouldn't have the QGA as part of their Black repertoire.

And players like Kasparov and Carlsen, arguably, understand chess at a higher level than any other humans on the planet. (And yes, they understand chess at a higher level than even the great Nimzowitsch.)

That's not to knock Nimzowitsch -- the guy contributed significantly to our modern understanding of chess. His contributions elevated the game, no question. But he didn't see the whole picture, in the way modern masters do.

He glimpsed a slice of the whole chess pie, and proclaimed his slice to be the entirety.

I'd say that Nimzo was like Morphy, in a way. They both cemented their names in chess history. And they both understood specific aspects about chess that seemed far ahead of their contemporaries. But both Morphy and Nimzo would crumble against today's players, as chess understanding has moved on considerably since each of them.

Avatar of Optimissed

Very good post.

Avatar of darkunorthodox88

if chess were just about objective eval, then we we would have far fewer openings played even at the top tier level.

in fact the reason certain openings have fallen from grace  at the top(like the KID ) is not because they are objectively inferior so much as they have been analyzed to death. The amount of information available today is very high compared to the days you had to read soviet magazines to be up to date.

Ultimately every player must make a choice which combines objective eval, preference ,and even goal in every game. Grandmasters have a narrower range of choices (They cant play as suicidal, require a much more in depth repertoire etc). but they have to choose all the same. Will you learn a very theoretical line 30 moves deep or play a lot of stuff 20 moves deep? will you play something offbeat better than anyone else or will you stick to safe territory?

as a side note, QGA is more than ok, anyone who thinks otherwise is snorting blocks.

 

Avatar of Laskersnephew

The wisdom of Dsmith42:

"Petrosian played entirely based upon Nimzowitsch's principles,"

"The QGA is awful for black. Whatever theory holds that it is OK is wrong. Black is unambiguously weaker for having played dxc4."

Petrosian played the QGA as black seven(!)  times while winning his world championship  match with Botvinnik in 1963!

Avatar of Optimissed

He's involved in an argument about the QGA. Someone thinks it's unsound.

Avatar of Dsmith42

I didn't say the QGA is unsound, I just said it's not as good as the QGD because it wastes tempo.  There are a lot of openings which don't lose by force (that's the definition of unsound) that nonetheless don't afford black much chance of winning.

Petrosian played the QGA against Botvinnik because it was Botvinnik, who was renowned for his match preparation skills.  Botvinnik wouldn't have expected it, as he barely played it at all prior to the match (and not much afterwards, either).  Three years later, against Spassky (who knew better how to punish loss of tempo), the QGA was nowhere to be found.

It's like saying Bobby Fischer was an English player because he played it in his 1972 match with Spassky.  He knew that the Soviet players were experts in opening preparation, and that Spassky had been preparing for no other opponent over the prior three years.

Avatar of Laskersnephew

"as a side note, QGA is more than ok, anyone who thinks otherwise is snorting blocks."

Absolutely true!

Avatar of Optimissed
Dsmith42 wrote:

I didn't say the QGA is unsound,>> 
<<<"The QGA is awful for black. Whatever theory holds that it is OK is wrong. Black is unambiguously weaker for having played dxc4.">>>

I just said it's not as good as the QGD because it wastes tempo.

Did you read my explanation of why it isn't a wasted tempo, though? Do you recognise that you can still learn here? After all, you aren't an expert at the QGA or you wouldn't have said that. I'm not criticising so much as  trying to get you to accept the possibility of an alternative point of view.

<<<There are a lot of openings which don't lose by force (that's the definition of unsound) that nonetheless don't afford black much chance of winning.>>>

It's one definition. How about "gets the player into difficulties for little or no compensation"? I prefer that and you prefer yours, I suppose.

I'm trying to play the QGD these days, by the way. I don't really like it but most people under 2250 haven't mastered the subtle nuances of Tartakover's Defence, so in practice I'm finding it ok. I'll admit this. If black wants to win, the QGD is better than the QGA. I'm starting to think it's even better than the Modern Benoni, what with all these modern, positional lines.

 

Avatar of nTzT

I am actually enjoying this discussion.