Dealing with the Italian Game as Black

I am a 1. ... e5 player. I am quite comfortable dealing with the Spanish, but lately 90% of my opponents seem to have switched to Italian Game and I am getting beaten convincingly everytime, partly because I do not know any lines in this opening (which I am willing to correct sooner than later). The quiet Be7, d6 setup which I often play was good when I was in 1600s, but now I mostly play 1900s who just destroy my passive setup.

I am looking for a reliable system for black against Italian game, or any other resources (books) that could help my cause.

There are 2 main ways to defend against the italian game.

1. Play with Bc5 - this can either lead to very sharp play (evans gambit / c3/d4 systems0 where black is fine and often even better if he knows theory or to very slow play where black is probably equal too but the positions are more like the d3 ruy lopez. A strong and relative simple setup is to play Bc5 /a6 / d6 / Ba7 / h6 / 0-0 (move orders depend on what white plays) and then slowly start aiming for d5.
2. If you want to put the ball in the white park you can play the 2 knights defence. where you play 3. ... Nf6. This leads to sharp lines more often then after Bc5 as white will often play with Ng5. However this is not needed white can also play slow with d3. However after d3 you can play Be7 with black because after playing d3 white can no longer play d4 in 1 go. (most dangerous setup versus the direct 3. ... Be7)

Books:

•  Bologan black weapons ( https://www.newinchess.com/Bologan_s_Black_Weapons_in_the_Open_Games-p-9001.html) contains  a large part on both 2 knights defence and italian game (so you can choose what to play)
• If you like the 2 knights more I like the Chessbase DVD from Erwin L'ami (http://shop.chessbase.com/en/products/lami_the_modern_two_knights) i found it to have a good mix between pure theory and explanation of ideas. (please note this only covers the Ng5 lines)

PS: I recently switched from the Bc5 Italian to the 2 knights because the risk vs reward is greater and overal there is less theory.

I will look into Bologan's book, and Nf6 line in particular. Thank you for your help, moonnie

zzzzz

Possibly helpful:

Beating the open games, Mihail Marin

https://web.archive.org/web/20140626195205/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen102.pdf

Open-Games-Black-Igor-Lysyj

https://web.archive.org/web/20140627104938/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen159.pdf

Play the Open Games as Black by John Emms

https://web.archive.org/web/20140627022601/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen11.txt

Bologan's Black Weapons in the Open Games

http://www.jeremysilman.com/shop/pc/Bologans-Black-Weapons-in-the-Open-Games-76p3873.htm

Starting Out: Open Games by GM Glenn Flear (2010)

https://web.archive.org/web/20140626232452/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen134.pdf

Play 1 e4 e5! by Nigel Davies (2006)

https://web.archive.org/web/20140626201436/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen80.pdf

https://web.archive.org/web/20140627083715/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen98.pdf

The Kaufman Repertoire for Black & White by Larry Kaufman (2012)

https://web.archive.org/web/20140626221508/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen162.pdf

Opening Repertoire: The Open Games with Black by Martin Lokander (2015)

https://www.newinchess.com/Shop/Images/Pdfs/7546.pdf

Playing 1.e4 e5 - A Classical Repertoire by Nikolaos Ntirlis (2016)

http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/ebooks/Playing1e4e5-excerpt.pdf

The December 2016 issue of Chess lists the top twenty openings compiled from a list of 2895 October games where both players were rated over 2400 Elo. One can not take position on this list too seriously because it is greatly influenced by how the openings are grouped. For example, all the Retis are grouped together, while English is separated into 1 ... c5, 1 ... e5, etc. Nevertheless, for what it is worth, one of the list entries is: 55 Italian games

The January 2017 issue only lists the top ten openings compiled from a list of 1701 November games, so I do not know if the Italian game managed to retain its place in the top twenty. However, in a recent issue of New in Chess, GM Anish Giri remarked that the Italian "has been very trendy recently". In the first issue of American Chess Magazine, GM Ivan Sokolov reported, "The Giuoco Piano or Italian game has been very popular of late."

A number of recent books have advocated the Italian game for White:

A SIMPLE CHESS OPENING REPERTOIRE FOR WHITE by Sam Collins

http://www.gambitbooks.com/pdfs/A_Simple_Chess_Opening_Repertoire_for_White.pdf

My First Chess Opening Repertoire for White by Vincent Moret

https://www.newinchess.com/Shop/Images/Pdfs/9033.pdf

Winning with the Slow (but Venomous!) Italian by Karsten Müller and Georgios Souleidis

https://www.newinchess.com/Shop/Images/Pdfs/9037.pdf

I clearly stated that I am looking to switch to a more active system in response to Italian Game. Appreciate your help with analysis but I no longer wish to continue to play the passive Be7, d6 system. I was only looking for a direction/reference and rest I am willing to dedicate my time to learn on my own. Thanks to moonnie, I know where to look for. As a matter of fact I have stopped playing blitz until I finish the chapters on 2 Knights Defense in Bologan's Black Weapons book.

And, of course my opponents are better. I am aware of that too because I ALWAYS play against opponents rated higher than me.

To prove that when in the right mind-set I am not a push-over and am capable of playing quality chess, you can analyse this:

Or this:

Or.. this annihilation of the Catalan:

 In the above Catalan game, White got outplayed right in the opening. This is exactly what was happening to me as Black in Italian, and hence this thread.

So you post blitz games to proof you are good at chess?

"To prove when Im in the right mindest", right, I can also play like a GM when my opponents play like trash.

This thread is stupid if not a joke, Be7-d6 is an interesting setup, almost like a Ruy Lopez one. 

If you want something else then use your brain and play the other 3 top moves, Bc5. Easy and not "passive".

You still don't get it, do you? All I asked for was a different system against Italian game. Others took their time to offer help and what did you say? Does it look like I need your help to tell me my opponents are better than me, and that is why I am losing? Or is that line you say to all who ask a Q here? If you have nothing constructive to offer on a thread then better stay away from it. This thread is not a joke. Both of your comments are.

My comments are not a joke. Your thread is the joke.

I was trying to actually help you, maybe you were playing the positions that arose after your "passive" setup wrong, and I think that learning how to play those pawn structures would have helped you more than just changing openigns.

Threads like this are jokes because this is the age of databases, you can freaking check databases and see other moves, then consult some games that used those moves and determine if you like or do not like the positions that arise from it. The only thing I can think when I see this threads is stupidity and wanting attention, but again, that is just me.

See ya.

Which part of:

"I am looking for a reliable system for black against Italian game, or any other resources (books) that could help my cause"

.. do you still not understand? So according to you, in this age of databases, each and every thread in 'Chess Openings' section is a joke. See ya.

https://es.lichess.org/analysis

This free database should help you.

Indeed most threads under the chess openings section are a joke. Altho you can find once in a while interesting ones that talk about deep lines where one can't trust a database, or where vivid analysis and thoughts of a sideline are shared.

Here you are just asking a stupid question, even a 1200 could tell you to play Bc5

There is only one 'Chess Openings' section in the forums, so there will be all sort of questions. Had there sub-sections for Beginner, Advanced etc threads could have been arranged better.

"Here you are just asking a stupid question, even a 1200 could tell you to play Bc5"

And yet I decided to opt for Nf6 line. I must be way below 1200 then. I will try my best to quickly lose my games and bring my rating down to under 1200 and restore balance to the universe. Meanwhile you can also think about stop poking your nose into so-called "joke" threads where the matter is already settled within first 3 responses itself, especially when your intention is to enlighten the OP that his opponents are better without caring to read the initial question.

2 other users here understood my question and replied promptly. And then you arrive to declare this thread a joke!

Thank you

Are you ok with the positions that arise after 4.Ng5? Black's counterplay can dissapear with a single mistake and leave you a pawn down...

It is obvious that if your opponents win is because they played better. I thought sharing your games with Be7-d6 was gonna be interesting and would help all of us improve our understanding of chess.

I was also interested to see what problems are you having, you play the Marshall against the Spanish but after h3 you are back into a normal Ruy Lopez position with Be7-d6 yet you still claim to be doing well in the Ruy Lopez but not in the Italian where your opponent didnt force you to play a6-b5?

Yes, I am okay NOW because I am studying relevant chapters in that Bologan book . Was not Okay before moonnie mentioned about that treasure.

Did you pay 30 euros for such a simple opening as the Italian? 

Frankly I have never given enough time to Italian. I was too young to understand the positions and gambits then (then I used 1. ... c5 exclusively). I am willing to dedicate some time into it now, hence I just wanted a book's name / system which others have tried and worked for them.

Not just Italian, it covers every  1. e4 e5 systems except the Spanish. I can't thank moonnie enough for this book. 

Ok, looks like a waste of money to me, but again, to me. Good luck with your new book and Italian.