I don't recall for sure but I think openings for white according to kramnik 2nd ed touches on this move a little. I think it focused more on 5.Qa4+ though.
Really you can just take any book that covers the russian and just ignore every line with Nxc3 (i.e. the main line) since Nxc3 Qxc3 is obviously not good for black and just about everything else should transpose.
NOOO! Why are you doing this to yourself. This is not a Gruenfeld.
If you are going to fianchetteo than do so in a favorable position. You only play Nf6 against d4. Not the English.
1.c4 e5!
or
1.c4 g6!
If your intention is to play Nf6 than you can no longer fianchetteo. It is unfavorable to have a knight on f6 when you fianchetteo against the english. The knight goes to e7 when you fianchetteo.
Unless you are not fianchettoing than you treat the position like a Open Sicilian reverse with Nf6, e5, Nc6, d5 etc.
Yes this is the way 1-0
Unless you want to get positionally Nasty.
HA HA you sicko
Than you play e5, Nf6 and Bb4 the Black Rossolimo HA HA HA.
Yes this is the way 1-0
@X PLAYER JX I disagree. You can play Nf6 + g6. White's best line is probably to transpose into a KID, so if black is familiar with that, there should be no issue. I suppose white can also play the Botvinnik or something but that won't give him much advantage. Otherwise if he doesn't play for e4 or d4 then black should be fine.
Or maybe white reaches the position with 1.Nf3 instead. Either way, it's still a position that is relevent to theory and sees play.
@X PLAYER JX I disagree. You can play Nf6 + g6. White's best line is probably to transpose into a KID, so if black is familiar with that, there should be no issue. I suppose white can also play the Botvinnik or something but that won't give him much advantage. Otherwise if he doesn't play for e4 or d4 then black should be fine.
White can't play a KID only the black piece's can play that and White can't play a KIA becuase of c4. It is the English Opening.
Unless that was a typo and you was trying to say Black best line is to play a KID well than that is exactly what I said above.
However, you do not want the knight on f6 in that KID. You want it on e7.
On f6 and on e7 the Knight does not pressure any thing becuase their is no e4 pawn or d5 pawn to pressure.
The reason Knight on e7 is better is becuase it allows the F pawn to move.
If the knight can't pressure or attack anything than the best spot for it is getting it out of the way lol.
No, X PLAYER JX, I am not sure what you are talking about. White's best line may be to transpose into a variation of the King's Indian Defense.
Like this: 1. c4 Nf6 2. Nc3 g6 3. Nf3 Bg7 and now if white plays 4. d4, WHITE has transposed into a KID. We already established that black is playing Nf6, g6, and Bg7, so if white ever plays d4, we enter a KID!
This is how white can choose to enter a KID. And again, I don't think black has anything to fear if white doesn't play into a KID. He might be ever-so-slightly worse, but white has no real initiative.
It's theoretically better for Black to have the knight on e7 specifically against some English positions when you're playing the KID setup because it avoids some Nd5/Bg5/Bh6 tricks. It's not a mistake to put it on f6 though.
No, X PLAYER JX, I am not sure what you are talking about. White's best line may be to transpose into a variation of the King's Indian Defense.
Like this: 1. c4 Nf6 2. Nc3 g6 3. Nf3 Bg7 and now if white plays 4. d4, WHITE has transposed into a KID. We already established that black is playing Nf6, g6, and Bg7, so if white ever plays d4, we enter a KID!
This is how white can choose to enter a KID. And again, I don't think black has anything to fear if white doesn't play into a KID. He might be ever-so-slightly worse, but white has no real initiative.
I don't know if your being serious or trolling. So what I will say is you are not correct.
White does not have a choice on whether or not black plays a KID. Only black has that option becuase the KID is a black side player opening.
The Kings Indian Defence is played with the Black piece's.
For Example I will use your move's you gave.
Black is playing a Gruenfeld not a KID. Their is nothing white can do to stop this from being a Gruenfeld becuase only Black has that option.
I also said against 1.c4 if black's intention is to fianchetteo his bishop. He should not play 1...Nf6
If black wishes to fianchetteo his bishop and play a KID type of position against 1.c4 than black should play
1...e5!
or
1...g6!
The reason why is becuase in some English Opening line's the black knight is better placed on e7 not blocking the F pawn.
By playing 1...e5 or 1...g6 and delaying the king side knight. Black can see what white does so they can put the knight in its best spot either on f6 or e7.
If black does play 1...Nf6 against 1.c4 than in some English Opening line's the dark bishop can not fianchetteo.
Instead what ends up happening is the Dark bishop gets put outside of the pawn chain either on c5 or b4.
In some 1...Nf6 lines black plays like a Open Sicilian reversed with the black piece's. Which can be seen in the below diagram.
Here is another line that can be played with 1...e5 which does have Nf6 being played.
Now what does that look like? Almost like a Black Rossolimo/Moscow type of position.
Well the offical name is
A21: English Opening/King's English Variation/Kramnik-Shirov Counter
And that is all
Okay fine. If white plays 4. d4 he transposes into EITHER a KID or Grunfeld. Technicality, but no, I wasn't trolling, and it seems like you're not understanding what I am saying at all.
Actually, if 1. c4 Nf6 (which I still think is fine, even if you do play g6, and any database will show you that black can play Nf6 and g6 against the English perfectly well) 2. Nc3 g6 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. g3, if black plays 4...d6 then right there WHITE DOES have the option to transpose into a KID!
So sure, both sides have to allow an opening, but sometimes the final choice to enter an opening can fall to white, even if it is a "black opening".
Okay fine. If white plays 4. d4 he transposes into EITHER a KID or Grunfeld. Technicality, but no, I wasn't trolling, and it seems like you're not understanding what I am saying at all.
Actually, if 1. c4 Nf6 (which I still think is fine, even if you do play g6, and any database will show you that black can play Nf6 and g6 against the English perfectly well) 2. Nc3 g6 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. g3, if black plays 4...d6 then right there WHITE DOES have the option to transpose into a KID!
So sure, both sides have to allow an opening, but sometimes the final choice to enter an opening can fall to white, even if it is a "black opening".
White can not tranpose into a KID becuase it is a line played with the Black piece's.
White's line against Black playing the KID has a different name. Over 20-30 variations and names.
Example:
White is playing the Petrosian Variation
Black is playing the Kings Indian Defence
They both have different name's
Another Example:
White is playing the Exchange Variation
Black is playing the Kings Indian Defence
Another Example:
White is playing the Orthodox Variation/Gligoric-Taimanov System
Black is playing the Kings Indian Defence
This statement below by you is wrong:
WHITE DOES have the option to transpose into a KID!
No he doesn't have an option becuase he isn't playing with the Black piece's. He is playing with the white piece's. It is Illegal for him to play the KID.
The line White is playing has a name other than the KID becuase only black is playing the KID. Depending on which variation is played will determind the name of the White line.
I do not understand why you are having trouble with this. We have a failure to communicate here.
Whats next Mister? Why stop at the KID. Why don't you hop over to the Sicilian line's
Are you going to start calling the YugoSlav Attack the Sicilian Defence.
Just delete the white names and have every line white plays named the Sicilian Defence after 1...c5
Yes white can transpose into a KID. He THEN can choose his variation.
The KID is played by BOTH PLAYERS. White must play certain moves and black must play certain moves. If black plays g6, Bg7, Nf6 and d6, it is NOT NECESSARILY A KID. It only becomes a KID if white chooses to play or transpose into one with d4, c4, Nf3, Nc3, etc. If white never plays d4, or plays Nc3 before c4, or does something else entirely, it is not a KID. Both sides have to agree to play an opening.
Lol @you going so far without having a clue about anything that I am saying. You're a strong player, so this should all make sense to you.
Also, I don't mean to offend you, but your grammar is very bad for someone claiming to be from the USA. When you make something plural, you should not add random appostrophes. The plural of "piece" is PIECES, not PIECE's.
A variation is played by BOTH PLAYERS. Give any variation of any opening. For example...the Karpov Variation of the Semi-Slav. 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 c6 4. e3 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nbd7 6. Qc2. This position is the Karpov Variation because BOTH SIDES PLAYED IT. It is not just a white opening- let's see what happens if white tries to play the moves of the Karpov Variation against, oh, let's say a Classical Slav!
1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 Bf5 5. Nc3 e6 6. Qc2 Bxc2 0-1
Right there that shows that BOTH sides have to agree to play a variation in order to go into it. Was white playing the Karpov Variation in that example? No! He was playing the Schallopp Variation with the blunder Qc2 inserted. But black has to play into the Schallopp, too. If black had played 4...a6, it would have been a Chameleon Slav. If one side plays something and the other side doesn't cooperate, it is NOT CONSIDERED to be that variation.
Therefore, a variation is played by both sides. White thus can transpose into a KID, because he can use an English move order (provided black plays Nf6, g6, Bg7, and d6 in some order) and then play d4- and then we have the agreement. Both sides agree to play the KID! Transposition occurs when one side agrees to switch the opening into another one. White agrees in that position to play the KID rather than an English.
On the Saint Louis Chess Club channel GM Samy Shoker gives a lecture on a game where Black plays Nf6, g6, Bg7, d6 against the English opening and he refers to it as the King's Indian. I've played it myself against 1. c4 a million times with decent results. @XPlayer, you said the knight's placement on f6 isn't justified because it has no white pawns to pressurize. I beg to differ. It's not about pawns, it's about the central squares. If White chooses not to occupy the center, then what do they do? They go Rb1, a3, b4, hoping to create some play on the queenside. This gives Black the chance to take over the center with e5, c6 and an eventual d5, when the black pawns are well supported by the Nf6. It would harder to do if the knight were on e7.
In regard to the red text.
I believe you are misinterpreting what I am saying.
There is nothing wrong with 1.c4 Nf6
However, I believe black should not play 1...Nf6 because he can hold off on that move. I believe black has better prospects he can go for. I believe he should remain flexible with his king knight. To figure out where blacks king knight is better placed.
Instead of 1...Nf6 black can play 1...g6 or 1...e5.
Notice the difference.
This is what your text says If White chooses not to occupy the center, then what do they do? They go Rb1, a3, b4, hoping to create some play on the queenside.
By black delaying his Knight to f6 he keeps his f7 pawn flexible. Black allows himself the chance to start a king side pawn storm to meet whites queen side one.
Again the kings knight retains the option of going to f6 or e7. By delaying the kings knight blacks F pawn is more mobile/flexible.
As usual the discussion goes into an inane loop about naming, whilst ignoring plans, and what both players trying to acheive. 1Nf3 Nf6 2c4 g6 is perfectly valid way for black can play. When white delays playing d4, there are kingsIndian type play black can adopt with d6, e5 and later na6 and c6 aiming to play in the centre with d5. First shown in "Beating the flank openings", and updated a bit in a book by Dembo. That's only one example black can try.
The Russian system is escentially strategically winning!, after the opponent plays dxc4. black will try to play c5 or e5, when that happens you can be prepare to play d5, never play your pawn to e4, you want your e4 square for a knight, and be prepare to play d6!, if the black pieces can never play c5 or e5 they will be strategically lost.
Hi,
I’m trying to find some theory about the following line as white vs. the Grunfeld defense:
1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 g6 3.Nf3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.Qb3
This is similar to the Russian system vs. the Grunfeld, but starting with the English move order white avoid the main black choice …dxc4 after Qb3.
I’ve seen many games with this line at the top level, but I don’t know where I can find theory about it (book, article, video…)
Thank you for your help.