For beginners, 1.d4 is just as good as 1.e4. Prove me wrong.

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ytroitsky

Also, @Skynet , if you like debate, then here are some websites that are free and made for debate;

https://debatehub.net/

https://www.debateisland.com/

https://www.debateart.com/

I just see that you create forum topics specifically to debate with people, but forums are traditionally a chat where people seek help or to answer questions, so people may answer your questions with no intent on a debate. You write 'prove me wrong' but I still think it would be easier for you to go to one of these websites, where people specifically go to debate various topics.

emmett2K
Skynet wrote:

Everyone says that beginners should play 1.e4 because it's open and tactical, but in reality it's only slightly more likely to become open and tactical than 1.d4, the difference is not big enough to warrant putting that much importance on this one single factor. The French is closed. The Caro-Kann is positional. The Spanish is both closed and positional, as is the mainline of the Italian, which is literally called the Giuoco Pianissimo, which means the very quiet game. 1.e4 e5 is called the "Open Game", but in my opinion that's a misnomer.

Proponents of 1.e4 say that beginners must fight for the center and try to occupy it with Pawns. I agree. But you can do that with 1.d4 too. You play 1.d4 2.c4 3.Nc3, and then 4.e4 if your opponent allows it, else e3 and maybe later you will be able to play e3-e4.

An advantage of 1.e4 over 1.d4 is that if you play 1.e4 you often get to play d4 on move 2, while if you play 1.d4 you generally get to play e4 only on move 4 or 5. This I agree with.

People say that White gets Pawns on e4 and d4 more frequently when he starts with 1.e4 than when he starts with 1.d4. This I disagree with.

Against 1.e4, 63% of the time beginners play 1...e5. In the mainline of the Spanish, you will only be able to play d4 on move 10. In the mainline of the Italian, it will take even longer, if it ever happens. After 1.d4 2.c4, beginners allow White to play e4 more frequently than strong players do. For example, after 1.d4 d5 2.c4, 18% of the time beginners play 2...Nf6, which allows 3.cxd5 Nxd5 4.e4.

In 1.e4, when you will play d4 Black will immediately liquidate the center by playing ...cxd4 or ...exd4, so you will only have two Pawns in the center for a very brief instant. If you play 1.d4 2.c4 3.Nc3 4.e4, you will be able to keep your Pawn center for a long time, you will be able to maintain your Pawn center as a long-term positional feature.

1.d4 allows you to choose between playing a system (by playing 2.Nf3 followed by anything other than 3.c4) or playing classical principled chess and fighting for center (by playing 2.c4 or 2.Nf3 3.c4).

1.d4 2.c4 and 1.d4 2.Nf3 3.c4 faithfully follow the principle "develop Knights before Bishops", as White almost always plays Nc3 and Nf3 before developing any other piece. 1.e4 follows this principle less faithfully, as the Four Knights is a second-rate opening (after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6, GMs play 3.Nc3 only 5.8% of the time).

People say that 1.e4 allows you to castle Kingside sooner than 1.d4. Okay. But White castles Kingside more frequently in 1.d4 than in 1.e4.

People say that a player must develop like the history of chess developed. What evidence is there to back up this psycho-historicist theory? None. Nada. Zilch. What is asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. If this theory was true, then beginners shouldn't start with classical sound openings like the Italian and the Spanish, no, they should first start with unsound romantic gambits. If this theory was true, then once you reach a certain level, you would have to switch to 1.c4 and 1.Nf3. If this theory was true, then you would need to completely abandon your repertoire and create a new one even if you are perfectly happy with your current repertoire. You are not prepared to do that, you are not prepared to follow the logical consequences of this theory, so you must reject this theory.

Beginners play 1.e4 67% of the time, but 1.d4 only 20% of the time. Their opponents will be much better prepared for 1.e4 than for 1.d4. 1.d4 will have surprise value.

I'm not saying that for beginners 1.d4 is better than 1.e4. I'm saying that these two moves are about equally good, and so the old adage that beginners must play 1.e4 is wrong. Each of these two moves has advantages and disadvantages over the other.

People are assuming a one-size-fits-all answer. People are assuming that there is one single opening move that is objectively better than all the other moves for ALL beginners.

People are assuming that maximizing long-term improvement is all that matters. People are so focused on maximizing long-term improvement that they neglect all other goals. The most important question when choosing your openings is not "what are the openings that maximize long-term improvement?" but "what openings do you enjoy playing?" and "which openings best fit your own personal preferences?". If you adopt openings that you hate playing, you will end up quitting chess, and so you won't improve, even if these openings are supposedly the ones that maximize long-term improvement.

I agree with you. i think d4 is just as good and possibly better than e4. I personally prefer d4 as my first move over e4.

PikachuIronMan

no i wont prove you wrong its just preference at that point

crazedrat1000

"You are contradicting yourself. At first you were saying that the onus of proof is on me, not on the proponents of 1.e4, because they have Kramnik on their side (an authority), so their position is the default one. Now you say that the default position is to maintain uncertainty"

I said when given no reason to believe something one way or another we must default to skepticism, which is a state of uncertainty. I didn't say that Kramnik and the Russian chess school's opinions aren't reason to believe 1. e4 is a good move for beginners... I cited them as expert authorities - their expertise is reason to listen to them. What I specifically said is I have more reason to trust their expertise than your presumed authority. I'm afraid you are very confused as usual

"The Flying Spaghetti Monster was just one example among an infinite number of possible examples. There are an infinite number of gods, and you feel certain that none of them exists (well except perhaps for one of them, if you're not an atheist). It can't be because you've pondered about each of them and looked at the arguments for each of them, because that would take you an infinite amount of time, since there are an infinite number of them."

There are not an infinite number of Gods, there are a seemingly infinite number of nonsense concepts you can come up with and call Gods - I feel certain none of them exist because the very manner inwhich you conceptualize a God is not rational. For example, there is no material entity that can ever precede material existence or explain its creation, it doesn't matter how many different types of material beings you dream up, this is just a logical contradiction. There are metaphysical and philosophical criteria a construct must meet to serve the role of God. Flying spaghetti monster is emblematic of your whole way of conceptualizing a God - it just will never work, it's a shallow and ill conceived notion.

"It would be valid to make an analogy between the questions "do aliens exist?" and "is there one move that is significantly better for beginners than all the others?", because one could maybe make the case that the prior probability for the answer being yes is 50% (I think he would still be wrong, but his case would not be without merit). But it is not valid to make an analogy between the questions "do aliens exist?" and "is 1.e4 the best move for beginners?", because even if we assumed, just for the sake of the argument, that there was one move that was significantly better for beginners than all the others (an assumption which I believe is false), the prior probability for each move would be 5% (because there are 20 first moves, and 100% divided by 20 equals 5%), which is much lower than 50%. The prior probability for aliens is much higher than the prior probability for 1.e4."

It's amazing the mental gymnastic you end up going through only to arrive at wrong answers...
The maximum uncertainty of an answer would be for cases where all answers have equal probabilities. If you assume every one of 20 chess moves have a 5% probability of being the best move then you maintain total uncertainty as to which move is the best move... likewise, if you have 2 options - aliens existing or not - and we grant there's a 50% chance of either being correct - we could say there's maximum uncertainty as to which answer is correct. In both cases we maintain uncertainty, but we're not cross-referencing aliens with chess moves, there is no need to do that. What the examples show is how skepticism works.

"You haven't heard that in science, "it's never aliens". The medias often say that this or that thing could be because aliens. For example, Oumuamua could be an alien spaceship, if the luminosity of a star varies abnormally it could be because it is surrounded by a Dyson sphere or a Dyson swarm or some other kind of alien megastructure. But scientists don't say this. Scientists always consider that the alien explanation is false until proven true. And the alien explanation always ends up getting refuted eventually."

No, to be unproven is not to be disproven, you are very confused... Scientific skepticism does not assume an explanation is false until it's proven true, that would preclude it from further consideration... scientific skepticism withholds judgment until a thing is proven true. Science is empirical and progressive, and the body of knowledge it builds up consists of that which has been proven. But it always remains open to unproven hypotheses being later proven.

What you're promoting is called pseudoskepticism, it's a misunderstanding of skepticism where uncertainty is replaced by denial... yes, there's an actual term for your thinking error here, this has been written about at length, there's even a wikipedia article about it - 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoskepticism

Pseudoskepticism is a philosophical or scientific position that appears to be that of skepticism or scientific skepticism but in reality is a form of dogmatism. ... a claimed skeptic is accused of excessive sureness in turning initial doubts into certainties.

And scientific skepticism is just one form of skepticism. It's different from philosophical skepticism or methodological skepticism... both of which are more relevant in this conversation about philosophical topics, and matters that aren't empirical by nature i.e. the origin of the unvierse, the existence of God or Gods...

Funnily enough, world governments and scientists have both now come out and claimed openly that they have recovered alien crafts and bodies - maybe in North Korea you don't have access to that news, but yes, the global disclosure event happened sometime last year... this isn't the point of the analogy but it's worth mentioning in light of your claim "it's never aliens" - well no, turns out it actually was. So what does that tell us about your entire way of thinking? You were wrong. 
https://abc7.com/mexico-aliens-corpses-ufos/13776957/

Wrong again I'm afraid

astropikachu

@ytroitsky meant that it opens the bishop and queen and no need of long explaination bro cause only some one like me will read it