French Defence: Most forcing line for white

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Yigor

Optimissed has formally proven that he's a pedantic guy always walking with the thickest edition of Thesaurus containing only CORRECT meanings! grin.png

Mal_Smith

Rather than boggling my brain with database stats, as a beginner I turn to my beginner's book. He certainly doesn't say that the advance variation is only for GMs. He say:

Exchange variation: "sleep inducing"

Winawar: "extremely messy"

Tarrasch: "gives black options"

Advance variation: generally gives one option, white attack on the kingside, and try to frustrate black's queenside counter attack.

So I reckon Yigor could be right, the advance variation generally "forces" the "one option", so play that!

 

Yigor

Sleep inducing exchange LoL. wink.png Where are my huge Cambridge and Oxford dictionaries? Is "sleep inducing" equivalent to "forcing to fall asleep"? grin.png

Mal_Smith
Yigor wrote:

Sleep inducing exchange LoL. Where are my huge Cambridge and Oxford dictionaries? Is "sleep inducing" equivalent to "forcing to fall asleep"?

If you are forcing us to use your non-strict definition of forcing then, yes, this is correct.

pfren

I liked this book quite a lot. 

WARNING: It's aimed at intermediate to advanced players.

 

http://dev.jeremysilman.com/shop/pc/Fighting-The-French-p3747.htm

 

The resulting positions are dynamic, and offering chances to both sides.

Yigor
Mal_Smith wrote:
Yigor wrote:

Sleep inducing exchange LoL. Where are my huge Cambridge and Oxford dictionaries? Is "sleep inducing" equivalent to "forcing to fall asleep"?

If you are forcing us to use your non-strict definition of forcing then, yes, this is correct.

 

That's the famous English humour, I guess. happy.png Yes, I'm forcing a non-forced definition of "forcing". grin.png

 

Yigor
pfren wrote:

I liked this book quite a lot. 

WARNING: It's aimed at intermediate to advanced players.

 

http://dev.jeremysilman.com/shop/pc/Fighting-The-French-p3747.htm

 

The resulting positions are dynamic, and offering chances to both sides.

 

Does the sleep inducing variation of French make U fall asleep? happy.png

pfren
Yigor έγραψε:
 

 

Does the sleep inducing variation of French make U fall asleep?

Which is that one? 

Yigor

Exchange variation.

pfren
Yigor έγραψε:

Exchange variation.

 Wrong approach. Black can keep it "dull" by maintaining symmetry, but white cannot do the same- Black always has something sound to unbalance the position.

Generally speaking there are dull players, not dull openings.

Bishop_g5

I find very interesting the exchange variation for White with isolated d4 pawn. Theory claims Black is at least equal if not slightly better but in price to play this position, I don't care. It's like an ancient secret calling for someone to reveal it....

Mal_Smith

Maybe I need a new Bible, this looks quite exciting:

https://www.365chess.com/view_game.php?g=78808&m=11

Is the gambit 4...c5 an example of breaking symmetry?

Yigor
Mal_Smith wrote:

Maybe I need a new Bible, this looks quite exciting:

https://www.365chess.com/view_game.php?g=78808&m=11

Is the gambit 4...c5 an example of breaking symmetry?

 

The gambit is not 4...c5 but 5...Nf6. It was played only once in master games and it doesn't seem particularly sound.

Mal_Smith

Apologies, of course 4...c5 isn't a gambit, black can recapture immediately, there is no sacrifice. But, indeed, now I see, by refusing to recapture (5...Nf6) it becomes a gambit because white can now protect that pawn. (But he doesn't...)

So why isn't it sound? Maybe he was trying to encourage white to protect that pawn and damage his position?

ThrillerFan
SmithyQ wrote:

The Advance variation probably has the least number of lines to consider, but it's exactly the type of game Black wants.  That is, no one plays the French and says, "Gee, I hope White doesn't play the Advance."  It's pretty much exactly what Black wants, and usually the first line a Black player learns.

The Tarrasch variation, 3.Nd2, is probably a better try.  It's more theoretical, yes, but White often plays the same ideas and moves across the different lines.  Another option is the KIA with 2.d3 and 3.Nd2, aiming to play g3, Bg2, f4, Nf3 and 0-0 at some point.  This has less theory, is a serious system and, as a bonus, is not something the typical French player usually wants to face.

 

As a French player, I beg to differ!

 

Give me the Tarrasch!  Give me the Exchange!  WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY easier to equalize than against the Advance or 3.Nc3!

 

Tarrasch is a joke!  Below are 3 URLs that you can copy and past and observe 3 demolitions of the Tarrasch:

 

http://charlottechesscenter.blogspot.com/2017/02/the-french-revolution.html

http://charlottechesscenter.blogspot.com/2017/03/chess-is-like-stock-market.html

http://charlottechesscenter.blogspot.com/2017/04/doing-household-chores.html

dpnorman

^Every time xD

 

My old coach, a 2500 GM, was a huge advocate of the Tarrasch, and had a very good winning record with it. Shame it was refuted by ThrillerFan since then

ThrillerFan
dpnorman wrote:

^Every time xD

 

My old coach, a 2500 GM, was a huge advocate of the Tarrasch, and had a very good winning record with it. Shame it was refuted by ThrillerFan since then

 

I'd love to have a match with this GM where I get Black every game!

 

And by the way, I never claimed the Tarrasch was refuted.  I've always claimed easy equality for Black.  White's advantage is ZIP!  At the GM level, it should draw every time!  I forget which database it was, but in the line I play in those 3 games, White's score is 50.2%.  It's roughly 55% in the French Defense as a whole.

 

As I'm sure you know, I've been a long time advocate of the Advance, and I still firmly believe White can get an advantage in that line, but I'm not stupid, and I know, just like anybody else that plays the French should know, that 3.Nc3 gives White the greatest advantage!

Cherub_Enjel

Well, it's natural that 3.Nc3 is best, since it follows the general opening principles the most. 

No clue why some people think that 3.Nd2, develop to a less active square, or 3.exd5, freeing black's bishop for nothing in return, could be objectively better, even if they are fully playable.

schachfan1
pfren wrote:
Yigor έγραψε:

Exchange variation.

 Wrong approach. Black can keep it "dull" by maintaining symmetry, but white cannot do the same- Black always has something sound to unbalance the position.

Generally speaking there are dull players, not dull openings.

It's well noticed about the symmetry. Even in the generally considered as dull Exchange variation, when the position is not symmetrical - it is more interesting to play

schachfan1
Cherub_Enjel wrote:

Well, it's natural that 3.Nc3 is best, since it follows the general opening principles the most. 

No clue why some people think that 3.Nd2, develop to a less active square, or 3.exd5, freeing black's bishop for nothing in return, could be objectively better, even if they are fully playable.

If everyone liked the pin after 3.Nc3 Bb4, the 3.Nd2 probably would not be that popular. And although 3.Nc3 does seem to be the best way, the White players need rather deep theoretical knowledge (or to be a genius, if playing without being theoretically prepared) to put problems for Black and to get advantage.