How do you play the K.I.D. when White plays e3 instead of e4?

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Nerwal
lendacerda a écrit :
Nerwal wrote:

You are deeply mistaken.

 

Agree to disagree

 

If you think you're smarter than Caruana and the entire assembly of GMIs because you have looked at a weak engine for a couple of minutes, your loss.

lendacerda
Nerwal wrote:
lendacerda a écrit :
Nerwal wrote:

You are deeply mistaken.

 

Agree to disagree

 

If you think you're smarter than Caruana and the entire assembly of GMIs because you have looked at a weak engine for a couple of minutes, your loss.

 

I did not say that. Are you even reading what i write? I said up there:

"Caruana either tryed to throw Grischuck off the book or had an interesting sharp line. He played one against Ding that blew my mind"

It was Ding not Grischuck but then again, i praised he's strategy

TwoMove

There is a book called "e3 poison" http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/products/11/297/e3_poison_hardcover_by_axel_smith/

that covers this, and variations for Grunfeld, Modern Benoni approach.  If black sticks with playing for e5, the position goes into one of the main-lines of the kings indian attack reversed, where white has an extra tempo. 

Nerwal
lendacerda a écrit :
Nerwal wrote:
lendacerda a écrit :
Nerwal wrote:

You are deeply mistaken.

 

Agree to disagree

 

If you think you're smarter than Caruana and the entire assembly of GMIs because you have looked at a weak engine for a couple of minutes, your loss.

 

I did not say that. Are you even reading what i write? I said up there:

"Caruana either tryed to throw Grischuck off the book or had an interesting sharp line. He played one against Ding that blew my mind"

It was Ding not Grischuck but then again, i praised he's strategy

 

I can read your posts very well thank you. Later you stated "Fabi did go for a weaker move "just" to make Ding burn he's time". That was not his strategy. He did not gamble on a bad line.

ThrillerFan
pfren wrote:
ThrillerFan έγραψε:

Well, for starters, 4.e3 is almost never played.  If it is, White's position is so passive that Black should have no problems.

 

Wrong.

Actually those 4.e3 systems are quite dangerous- there is always the risk of reaching a French KIA in reverse while being a tempo down.

Black should rather forget about the traditional ...e5 ideas, and switch either to a Grunfeld, or Benonesque setup. The latter makes sense as a pawn at e3 restricts the c1 bishop temporarily.

 

White's most sophisticated way to reach such positions is by not playing Nc3 early, so the the Grunfeld approacch loses its punch. So, say 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.e3 0-0 5.Be2 is the most interesting move order.

 

Now 5...d6 6.Nc3 (or just 6.0-0) is pretty much what white wants.

 

5...d5 6.cxd5 Nxd5 7.0-0 or even 7.e4 is obviously not a "perfect Grunfeld for Black, as the d5 knight has nothing to chop when kicked by the e-pawn.

 

I believe that the most consistent way to meet this is 5...c5, when white can choose between:

- A modern Benoni after 6.d5, where it's hard to see the usefullness of a pawn at e3.

- A reversed open Catlan after 6.dxc5, which of course is pretty OK, but not really threatening.

- A reversed Tarrasch QGD after 6.Nc3 cxd4 7.exd4 d5, or 6.0-0 cxd4 etc, where white's extra tempo is very real, but it is doubtful if it is enough to allow him fighting for an opening advantage.

 

 

While you take a single sentence of an entire post and deem "Wrong", you yet give virtually the same explanation that I do of not playing ...e5.

 

Let's look at another sentence in the post that you only partially quoted:

 

" In these e3-lines, you should have answered your own question about the lack of the ...Nxe4 trick.  The answer is you don't play ...e5."

 

Hmmm... "In these e3-lines" - That includes 4.e3, which compared to 4.Nf3/5.Bg5 and 4.Nf3/5.Bf4, both typically followed by e3, is rarer.

 

And just as proof, FOOL, 365chess.com, after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7, the move 4.e3 is played 277 times.  The move 4.Nf3 is played 7038 times.  Break 4.Nf3 down further, and after 4...O-O, 5.Bg5 occurs 3199 times and 5.Bf4 1248 times.

Let's see here - a little basic arithmetic for you:

4.Nf3/5.Bg5 - 3199

4.Nf3/5.Bf4 - 1248

4.e3 - 277

3199 is greater than 1248 which is greater than 277!

 

Also, great job sounding just like Donald Trump, mimicking what was said before and virtually claimed you came up with this great idea of playing an early ...c5.  Can I interest you in an orange spray tan?

 

Here's even the final sentence of the post that you only 10% quoted:

"So if they do 4.e3, without bringing the Bishop out to g5 or f4, it's even more passive for White.  Strike at the center in similar fashion, an early ...c5 resulting in a Benoni, Benko, or trade and ...d5 type of structure."

 

From now on, if you are going to quote me, QUOTE THE ENTIRE MESSAGE, YOU GOT IT????????????????????????  OTHERWISE - GET LOST!

funcharminglion

Hey. Don't be rude, bro. BRICK letters be disrespect. A few points. Maybe that's the idea? With e3 White might be hoping for a Benoni type game, to avoid the traditional KID pawn storm? Also, engines hate the KID, because of the cramped positions. Also, it doesn't score great... because lots of people don't have a clue about playing KID properly. If you going to play KID... put in some hard study, or don't bother. 

Muisuitglijder
lendacerda schreef:

I put it on lichess' analysis.

You just said the forbidden word

Muisuitglijder
DamonevicSmithlov schreef:

The "L" word. 

Muisuitglijder




ThrillerFan
pfren wrote:

@ ThrillerFan

 

 

4.e3- 277...   Yeah, sure.

Or something pretty close to that... say 11 times more.

Expert of the Starbucks chess openings...

 

 

Yes, 277 - Read the source, MORON!  I didn't say chessbase.  I listed the source in post 26!

LEARN TO READ!  I said 365chess.com, not chessbase.com!  See below!

 

ThrillerFan
Spelenderwijs wrote:
DamonevicSmithlov schreef:

The "L" word. 

 

 

More like the W word - WRONG!

 

Again, READ THE SOURCE, MORON!  And the physical number doesn't mean jack.  It's the ratio.  There is no difference if 4.e3 is played 277 times and 4.Nf3/5.Bg5 with an upcoming e3 is played over 3 thousand times, or if 4.e3 is played 11 times that and 4.Nf3/5.Bg5 is also played 11 times the number from the other source!

 

All pfren is doing is taking 5 percent of each message to twist it and make it sound wrong and make him sound smart when what he says doesn't mean jack bleep!

 

If 4.e3 is played 1 time and 4.Nf3/5.Bg5 is played 10 times, or if 4.e3 is played 10,000 times and 4.Nf3/5.Bg5 is played 100,000 times, you have not countered what I said to begin with!

 

So until you can give fully disproving data, SHUT UP AND GET LOST!

Prometheus_Fuschs

@ThrillerFan You should respect @Pfren more dude, he's an IM and you are a patzer, it's evident who knows more (hint, not you).

Prometheus_Fuschs

BTW, Chessbase > 365chess.com

ThrillerFan
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:

@ThrillerFan You should respect @Pfren more dude, he's an IM and you are a patzer, it's evident who knows more (hint, not you).

 

Chess rating and statistical analysis are NOT the same thing.  Clearly I am stronger at statistical analysis than that clown is!

ThrillerFan
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:

BTW, Chessbase > 365chess.com

 

 

FINE!  Then show me the stats for 4.Nf3/5.Bg5 - Still bet you is it NUMEROUS times more played than 4.e3.  Not double.  Not triple!

 

Show complete stats before you start claiming other posts are wrong - AND READ THE ENTIRE GD POST TOO!

Prometheus_Fuschs

Citing the amount of times a position has been played is NOT statistical analysis, pretending otherwise shows an example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Prometheus_Fuschs
ThrillerFan escribió:
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:

BTW, Chessbase > 365chess.com

 

 

FINE!  Then show me the stats for 4.Nf3/5.Bg5 - Still bet you is it NUMEROUS times more played than 4.e3.  Not double.  Not triple!

 

Show complete stats before you start claiming other posts are wrong - AND READ THE ENTIRE GD POST TOO!

Everything right at home?

lendacerda
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:

Citing the amount of times a position has been played is NOT statistical analysis, pretending otherwise shows an example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

 

It does show something. If most players/engines do not play it, it is probably deviating from theory, and is objectively not a good move

ThrillerFan
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:

@ThrillerFan You should respect @Pfren more dude, he's an IM and you are a patzer, it's evident who knows more (hint, not you).

 

Not to mentioned, he doesn't even know how to show numbers.  To see the total number of times 4.e3 is played, you don't put 4.e3 on the board.  You go through 3.Bg7, and then observe the number beside 4.e3, and then click on 4.Nf3 and 4...O-O and see the number beside 5.Bg5, and I bet you that second number is WAY HIGHER than the number beside 4.e3.

ThrillerFan
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:

Citing the amount of times a position has been played is NOT statistical analysis, pretending otherwise shows an example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

 

The exact point I just made - It has nothing to do with the number of times one move is played.  It has to do with how often one is played RELATIVELY to another move.

 

If 1.e4 is played 20,000 times, and 1.d4 is played 40,000 times, it has nothing to do with the quantity, it's relativity.  1.d4 would be deemed twice as more common as 1.e4.  If you pull up a different database and that one is 300,000 1.e4 games, and 600,000 1.d4 games, it's still double, or 2 to 1.

 

Relative Value, not Absolute Count, is what matters!