If you had to pick ONE b4 or f4 !?

AgentGPx34

1. b4 all the way!

I have played this move (known variously as the Sokolsky, the Orangutan, and the Polish) for a long time and my blitz rating is over 2100. If you're not convinced, look at my blitz history.

SNUDOO

"nobody plays the Bird in top level"

GM Henrik Danielsen (modern)

GM Bent Larsen (1980-1990s)

GM Aron Nimzowitch (early 1900s)

GM Emanuel Lasker (what)

SNUDOO

Also: Magnus Carlsen played the Bird's 4 times... and won four times.

https://www.chessonly.com/bird-opening/#:~:text=Bird's%20opening%20starts%20with%201,Hikaru%20Nakamura%2C%20MVL%2C%20Nepomniatchtchi.

Pawned064

@2ke21-0 (bongcloud opening) is the best by test.

 

 

Optimissed
Preusseagro wrote:
Optimissed hat geschrieben:
Preusseagro wrote:

Since when  is this

potential drawish

0-1

The King's Gambit is known to be drawish. I mean, you could do the same thing and ask "since when is 1. b4 ...c5 drawish?" Or 1. b4 ...g6, which I'm sure must be playable.

 i dont remember ever having a draw if i was facing KG, But I am maybe a special case.

Falkbeer

Yes sorry I knew I'd got the name wrong. Forkbeard County Gambol.

TeacherOfPain

@SNUDOO 

All of those people that you've named are 30 years or older. Do you see anyone that plays it now, successfully for more than 4 times, besides Magnus Carlsen? 

Probably not you know why? Because nobody plays it... It is nothing to argue about it is just the truth, the same truth that the Oragutan is not played in top teir either, however it is a better opening In my opinion. But also if you want to get technical look at the statistics, and all the people who say that b4 is better. It was popular in the 80's and is popularized by the majority over the bird for a reason.

There is no reason to take offense, that is just the reality, just like the same reality that d4 is slightly statistically better than e4. Do you think people that play e4 believe d4 is better, probably not, of course they are going to disagree. But regardless there is no reason to take offense, it is just the reality of what it is, in this situation. But my question is What do you want me to do about it? I can't just make people like the Bird or make it a better opening. Besides I realize that openings is a matter of preference, but it is a difference from preference and thinking that one opening is better than another when simply it is not because of obvious reasons and not so obvious reasons. 

Some reasons could be because it doesn't give people enough to win and it is drawish, some could be because it just seems like an inferior opening in average Master's hand, or some say it is not good to play because it doesn't suite their play. There are many reasons, but above all these reasons mentioned, all are valid.

pfren
SNUDOO έγραψε:

"nobody plays the Bird in top level"

GM Henrik Danielsen (modern)

GM Bent Larsen (1980-1990s)

GM Aron Nimzowitch (early 1900s)

GM Emanuel Lasker (what)

 

Add to them GM Mihail Marin, who used the Bird in all the games he played as white in a couple of tournaments. He has also made a Modern Chess course on the opening, which is pretty good (with some minor flaws).

annoyingtriangle

b4

 

annoyingtriangle

played some pretty good games with it.

Eagle_Twin
SNUDOO schreef:

Bro I can't challenge you my daily rating is too low 😂

I challenged you. 

TinkleDink

It mildly amusing how IM pfren comes in and says the bird is a good opening. And then Snudoo lists like 5 GMs an/or world champions that play the bird. But then a bunch of 1200s go ThE BiRD is BaaD it WeAKEns The KING! as if they know better than an internation master. 

Optimissed

But they AREN'T IMs and Bird's weakens the king's position and isn't a developing move. Therefore, they don't play it.

Preusseagro

IM Basman played moved like the creepy crawly, Grob and the St. Georgs defences

GM Antony Miles won with the ST Georgs defence against Karpov

But we all agree that these are bad openings

OPenings are not generally good if they are chossen by good players. They are good when the general mass of Masters says this is good with engines as an background.

TinkleDink
Optimissed wrote:

But they AREN'T IMs and Bird's weakens the king's position and isn't a developing move. Therefore, they don't play it.

No, they aren't IM's, which means they aren't qualified to call one opening better than another when the clearly have no experience. I wasn't referring to the people saying that they don't play it. I was referring to the people saying that it is inferior to 1. b4, when they have no place in saying that.

TeacherOfPain

@TinkleDink

Any chess forumer will tell you that understanding is understanding, regardless of rating or initial impressions, whether IM or not.

What you are saying is not accurate, and also with you talking about this in this topic. How do you feel about the conversation? Do you think the Bird is good? Go ahead and play it, if you think is a good opening or if it your preference, but don't talk if you have no meaning behind what you say in the terms of other players.

So simply regardless of how high or low a person is in rating, it doesn't matter as people know what they know, you act as if because someone isn't an IM, another player is not intellegient or can't pick up some things about the game. Like who are you to tell anyone of us? You are the same and even if you were a higher level, there is this thng called Respect... 

Plus it is just not a good all-around, it was an opening of preference, from the person who made the opening in which who was called Henry Bird, it was good for him because he was good with it, but for other players that don't play the Bird, then no of course it is a weakning and inferior opening, as people don't know how to play it and for the few that do play it, it is for reasons that are preference and/or because they are just good with it naturally or just like it.(But most are not, so why would they agree with it, there are so many other variations and openings people play and it just not what most players play...)

Many people are not good with an opening like the Bird, it just wasn't mean to be mainlined for an opening, it wasn't suppose to be like e4 or d4 or c4 or even Nf3, it is called an Other opening for a reason. And though such that c4 and Nf3 are other openings, they are not as bad as 1.f4 for the majority of players.

This is why people say the Orangutan is better if you want the real truth, because nobody plays the Bird, except for the people that are exceptionally better or like the opening, otherwise who plays it?

I mean there are 5 GM's who play this opening or such, however even so that is based on what their styles are, not because it is a good opening, because many people would think it is not great to put it simply. And I do think it does give a disadvantage as there are many ways to break through, such can be said the same with the Dragon variation in the Sicilian, but also there are still some Dragon Specialists out there, but it is not a popularized opening in Master play. The same is for the Bird, in exception for the selected few that were mentioned, but who else in master play?

So @TinkleDink when you say these things it makes me wonder as what are you talking about, this discussion is not amusing because the facts and understanding of this topic speaks clearly. Moreover it doesn't make sense how you put this exactly because this has nothing to do with conversation about how the Orangutan or Bird is better or worse, the crazy thing is, is the fact that you didn't even respond to the question from what I've seen.

Regardless, please mind your business and don't come at nobody like that, just say what you need to say and move on.

Preusseagro

As i rembered right Birds bilance with hi opening was negative

SNUDOO
Preusseagro wrote:

As i rembered right Birds bilance with hi opening was negative

I don't understand, sorry

kracker12345

The ape vs the Bird. Who will win? Theres your answer

SNUDOO

Bird, cuz birb poops on everything