It is a less ambitious opening, and it gives black more counter-chances than most mainstream lines do - but if even super-GMs play it with excellent results, then I don't see how us mortals should frown upon it. This isn't something I would play mainly though, just as an optional opening you play every now and then when you want to take a break from long variations you've played a million times.
Is 1.f4 a playable opening?
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Jul 25, 2017
0
#43
1.f4 is great for bullet or blitz and I love it. It offers interesting and tense games, and few not so trivial traps white can exploit.
But it's not so great for CC (daily) which games explorer clearly shows.
Mecanicas wrote:
gauranga wrote:
If you don't mind playing the KIng's Gambit, you can play 1.f4. IMO 1...e5 is Black's best reply. There are some lines in the Frohm's Gambit (1.f4 e5 2.fxe5 d6) and in the King's Gambit (1.f4 e5 2.e4 exf4) which look very good for Black. So I don't like playing 1.f4 anymore. I used to play it in my late teens.
"The best line". Well, I think after all it is a gambit and they are very equal in the opening. I'd play:
1. f4, e5; 2. d3,
...Nc6; 3. e4
...exf4; 3. Bxf4, d5; 4. e4, (...)
If I were playing with blacks I would play 1. f4, d5, which offers more alternatives in my opinion:
2. Nf3, c5; 3. g3, Nc6. For example. The gambit only tends to over-simplify the position.
Mecanicas, May I edit your 1.f4 d5 line?
1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 c5 3.e3 Nc6 4.Bb5, planning Bxc6 to secure e5 an outpost
Jul 28, 2017
0
#45
2...c5 is not best move for black, even if some people still play it.
Variation with g3->Bg2 might be interesting, but You can't make plans for it as You don't know what black will answer after 2.Nf6 .
I never liked that line (g3->Bg2) in fact I always try to set up pawns structure d2-e3-f4, not the h2-g3-f4 .
3.g3 variation has less chances for a draw, judging by games explorer.
Mecanicas wrote:
Bongoman2406 wrote:
Mecanicas wrote:
gauranga wrote:
If you don't mind playing the KIng's Gambit, you can play 1.f4. IMO 1...e5 is Black's best reply. There are some lines in the Frohm's Gambit (1.f4 e5 2.fxe5 d6) and in the King's Gambit (1.f4 e5 2.e4 exf4) which look very good for Black. So I don't like playing 1.f4 anymore. I used to play it in my late teens.
"The best line". Well, I think after all it is a gambit and they are very equal in the opening. I'd play:
1. f4, e5; 2. d3,
...Nc6; 3. e4
...exf4; 3. Bxf4, d5; 4. e4, (...)
If I were playing with blacks I would play 1. f4, d5, which offers more alternatives in my opinion:
2. Nf3, c5; 3. g3, Nc6. For example. The gambit only tends to over-simplify the position.
Mecanicas, May I edit your 1.f4 d5 line?
1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 c5 3.e3 Nc6 4.Bb5, planning Bxc6 to secure e5 an outpost
Well, that's interesting move but I would play the line I proposed.
3.g3, Nc6; 4. Bg2. If we wanted to play e5, we would not any problem, because:
..., e5; 5. Nxe5, Nxe5, 6. fxe5 and whites have a strong pawn centered. If blacks play Qc7, he would lose the tempo because he will not be able to take that centered pawn giving, in the sucesive games, a better position for whites. If blacks plays, on the other hand, Ne7 to go to c6; he also would not be able to take it, because:
..., Ne7; 7. c3 (preparing to play e4), Nc6; 8. d4! (and whites have the initiative, the space and a strong center.
The idea of 3.e3 and 4.Bb5 is to put a knight on e5; Henry Bird played that, and he was the person 1.f4 was named after, so I think my line may give a slight advantage
Mecanicas wrote:
e4_guy wrote:
2...c5 is not best move for black, even if some people still play it.
Variation with g3->Bg2 might be interesting, but You can't make plans for it as You don't know what black will answer after 2.Nf6 .
I never liked that line (g3->Bg2) in fact I always try to set up pawns structure d2-e3-f4, not the h2-g3-f4 .
3.g3 variation has less chances for a draw, judging by games explorer.
I'd play it, indeed: it has the main goal to create dominate the space on the queenside at the same time prepares ideas for the center. In my opinion, c5 should be played sooner or later to for the initiative. It also has good results among titled players according the explorer.
I was responding to an user that was trying to give an alternative to my line according his style and strategy. Of course I don't know what blacks are going to play, but the idea is the same: the square of e5.
3.g3 and 4.Bg2 do not fight for e5
Jul 28, 2017
0
#48
Mecanicas wrote:
I'd play it, indeed: it has the main goal to create dominate the space on the queenside at the same time prepares ideas for the center. In my opinion, c5 should be played sooner or later to for the initiative. It also has good results among titled players according the explorer.
I was responding to an user that was trying to give an alternative to my line according his style and strategy. Of course I don't know what blacks are going to play, but the idea is the same: the square of e5.
Why would You play 1.f3 and then "prepare ideas for center" LOL.
Why not simply play 1.e4 ?
Bird is not about controlling the center, but more about getting Your opponent into unknown territory.
Jul 28, 2017
0
#49
The rule of thumb is to not develop the knight on c6 until Black has castled. It's still fine to play this though. I think the plan of d5, Nf6, g6, Bg7 and O-O that they play against the kingside fianchetto is what the high-rated guys will play. Black basically doesn't move the c-pawn or d-pawn until White shows his intentions. It's one of things White has to deal with when playing reversed openings.
Jul 28, 2017
0
#50
Mecanicas wrote:
penandpaper0089 wrote:
The rule of thumb is to not develop the knight on c6 until Black has castled. It's still fine to play this though.
Not necessarly and we can find it in many games and opening lines, like the Sicilian's old variation; in QGD's Chigorin variation or in the above-mentioned Bird's Dutch variation.
Are you suggesting that White's bishop is better on e2 or d3 than it is on b5? Anyway there's nothing to lose from waiting for White to move the light-squared bishop and only then play the knight to c6. It makes White show what he wants to do and Black doesn't commit to any particular pawn structure. That's why it's become the way to play. I'm sure you can find many games with ...Nc6 but it's known now that Black has more to gain from delaying the move and it's much better than wasting time with a move like ...a6.
Jul 28, 2017
0
#51
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6? is clearly bad since it breaks that rule.
Btw, Lasker's rule, Knights before Bishops, is wrong almost as often as it's right. (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3! (Knights before Bishops) Nc6 3.Bb5 (Umm...) The idea behind the rule, that you should move the less flexible piece first, makes more sense, but even that has plenty of exceptions.
Jul 28, 2017
0
#52
SmyslovFan wrote:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6? is clearly bad since it breaks that rule.
Btw, Lasker's rule, Knights before Bishops, is wrong almost as often as it's right. (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3! (Knights before Bishops) Nc6 3.Bb5 (Umm...) The idea behind the rule, that you should move the less flexible piece first, makes more sense, but even that has plenty of exceptions.
This is a different position.
The point of delaying Nc6 after 1.f4 is that you avoid nimzo-indian positions that can be reached after, Bb5/Ne5/f4. Maybe this is ok for Black but why allow it? Otherwise you also keep the queenside undeveloped and can wait and see what White is doing before deciding on anything.
If they play the Leningrad or something else a similar plan is possible. It's just that Black can only gain from delaying the queenside development and waiting for White to show what he wants to do. There's also the rare case when you might actually want to block the c-pawn and play ...Nc6 rather than ...c5. I mean again there's probably nothing wrong with playing Nc6 early.
Jul 28, 2017
0
#54
I'm sure it's fine. But at the same time it invites complications that don't need to be allowed in the first place. And if you don't go into that then you just go into typical positions you would've gotten anyway. And what if White just plays Be2 anyway? Do I really want to have something for Be2 and Bb5 if I don't need to know both? So while Black could play it, I wouldn't bother unless I just wanted that position for some reason. And as someone that isn't even titled I see even less reason to even go into this stuff on top of whatever else White can do.
Jul 28, 2017
0
#55
Mecanicas wrote:
f3 does not control the center, and using it as a bridge for e4 is a bad idea, because it loses a tempo.
f4 and e4 are both playable. e4 directly controls the square of e4 and the adjacents d5 and f5. On the other hand, f4 controls the important square of e5 and plans to have an important presence on the kingside. The most common ideas against for blacks are the From gambit or to create a queenside counterplay; understood the idea, I say -and I said- I am not a Bird's player, nor an e4 player. I prefer closed structures given by d4, c4 or Nf3.
It has been used for the purpos you name, but objectively it controls indirectly a part of the center, which is the square of e5. c4, on the other hand, controls indirectly the square of d5.
1.f3 was a typo lol.
1.f4 doesn't control anything, it's just waste of tempo for white. It doesn't open any diagonals as either 1.d4 or 1.e4 do. It's "good" in case that black doesn't play 1f4 d5 2.Nf3 g6 . If black plays 2...g6 all plans you could have forged mean nothing. You just end up with position where You must defend it and attack can come up only if black makes some trivial mistake.
Jul 28, 2017
0
#57
Yes, it's a playable opening, and one that gives even experts a difficult time.
If you are going to play it, you should at least know the refutation to the From Gambit.
Jul 29, 2017
0
#58
I see Bird as a blitz/bullet opening, because, with some luck 
, it offers quick path to kingside attack.
This is not possible with pawns structure You're advocating (h2-g3-f4). It turns game into positional battle, an area where 1.d4 or 1.e4 will give better chances. Thus, I never play that line.
If You're interested in Bird opening, You can join the Bird opening club here (I'm member too so You can navigate to it through my profile).
Jul 29, 2017
0
#59
Btw, GMs do play "simple" chess quite often. That's not an insult to their play. Most players would like to have positions where they don't have to work hard, but their opponents usually don't let them.
If 1. f4 is that bad, what does that make the Dutch defense with 1. ... f5 then? Really bad?
There is a funny thing about this. After 1.d4 f5 white has allready played d4 and d3 like in the from gambit is not possible. After 1.f4 e5!? 2.fxe5 d6 3.exd6 Bxd6 This is not possible with the Dutch!