yeah, but i don't know the QG that well
Is Colle any good?
Sort:
Sep 2, 2009
0
#23
Yeah that would be a good idea, because i usually play the make it up as go along opening, which is great there is no theory you just improvise ... lol
SisyphusOfChess wrote:
I believe black should get easy equality with accurate play, but the Colle is a sound and solid system.
At the amateur level it is probably as good as anything else.
I'm going to call you out on that. What would you play against the Colle to get "easy equality"?
Why not the Queen's Indian or similar to focus on control of the e4 square which is the target for White. Really just about anything that focuses on the e4 square should offer equality, because in the C-K White's main plan is to put a pawn on e4.
Sep 16, 2009
0
#27
i'm surprised this post is still going .... thanks for all your comments much appreciated
Zukertort wrote:
SisyphusOfChess wrote:
I believe black should get easy equality with accurate play, but the Colle is a sound and solid system.
At the amateur level it is probably as good as anything else.
I'm going to call you out on that. What would you play against the Colle to get "easy equality"?
I often find playing similar systems a lot of players can talk a better game than they can play against them. I'm suspect of anyone below Master level who says that they can equalize easily again these type of systems.
The Old Benoni may be an interesting try against the Colle System. If you know your opponent is a Colle-or-nothing player, then the normal Colle move order 1. d4 2. e3 3. Nf3 4. Bd3 scores REALLY BADLY in the database against the Old Benoni, 1.d4 c5.
After the moves 1. d4 c5 2. e3 Nf6 3. Nf3 d5 4. Bd3 Nc6 Black shouldn't have any problems because White hasn't given him any. However, against someone who does not so inflexibly apply the system, the Old Benoni is more risky to play as Black.
Sep 17, 2009
0
#30
I have played against the Old Benoni with the Colle and managed to get a draw in the end ...
steevmartuns wrote:
Why not the Queen's Indian or similar to focus on control of the e4 square which is the target for White. Really just about anything that focuses on the e4 square should offer equality, because in the C-K White's main plan is to put a pawn on e4.
Hi Steve, thanks for answering my challenge [even though it was not directed at you.]
Most of Black's problems when using the QID against the Colle stem from his being a bit behind the turn with regards to castling. Strongpointing e4 is certainly one of Black's more formidable tries [though he has to be very careful about the move order]. His best chance is probably something like 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 b6 4.Bd3 Bb7 5.Nbd2 d5 6.Qe2!? Ne4 7.Ne5 Bd6 8.Qf3!
White will either get a K-side attack (after 8...Ng5) or an end-game advantage after Black drops the minor exchange.
Note that I've actually just used a solution to another move order. With a QID move order, White might do better by holding back so he can play Bb5. (The issue here is that if Black plays ...b6 before playing ...c5, White has some extra options because he no longer has to defend against the threat ...c4, for Black will be a move down on normal Q-side play since his b-pawn has already moved once, but I'm getting somewhat beyond the scope of a forum post here.]
If Black does not play ...d5 early, White can either transpose to a pleasant QID structure or push his e-pawn before Black can stop him. For example, even after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 b6 4.Bd3 Be7, 5.e4!? works pretty well for White
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.
AnthonyCG wrote:
LOL @ easy equality. Black can equalise but it will still take work of course. Chess doesn't play itself.
Anyway, I've been using a reversed Catalan vs the Colle and have been doing well with it. It gets rid of the opponent's ability to develop without paying attention to me lol. And that also slims down the time advantage Colle players will usually have and as a queen's gambit user the positions are familiar to me.
But I definetly don't expect an early advantage with it because even though it's a White opening, I still am on the Black side of the board.
Haha,
It is certainly foolish to play a Colle against a Reverse Catalan. I'm surprised you find decent players who do. I would think any decent Colle player would know that after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c5, 3.e3 is not nearly White's best hope.
Flier wrote:
I've played the colle for about 2 years, and i've had some good results vs B players, and decent results vs A players.
Biggest plus is that it's solid and rather easy to learn (looking through some games and perhaps reading a book about it should give you good ideas on where your chances are). It guarantees decent development and some threats and tricks in the (early) middlegame.
Biggest minus is that you won't get any advantage vs good players and nothing more than several draws. Also the play get's boring after a while, it's not a very 'rich' system in my opinion, thats the main reason why i don't play it anymore.
Flier, I would really invite you to take a look at my Phoenix Attack idea. It is not at all boring and I am certain is far stronger than the currently accepted mainline.
You should join the Colle Players forum at www.zuke-dukes.com/forum
I find that I actually have a more difficult time playing the Colle System than the main lines of other d4 openings. I think this is because I struggle with the desire to achieve the specific set-up and have a hard time knowing when to deviate from the c3-d4-e3-etc. set-up. In other openings, I don't have as good of an idea of the 'ideal position,' so I deviate freely. 
Perhaps I would be more interested in the Colle System if I was playing more competitively, but for now, I think I'd rather have a tough time with a Queen's Gambit Declined, Slav, or Queen's Indian and learn what I can, even if I come out of the opening at a disadvantage.
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/explorer
Here you can actually check all the openings, how well they perform.
I predict that Colle gives many drawn games.
AnthonyCG wrote:
Funny thing is, I play 1...Nf6 2...g6 :D
So I either play a KID or that reversed Catalan. White has better chances in a KID, but I'm more comfortable with it than a Colle so that's what I do. It gets tricky though when White tries to delay e2-e3 because then I can't play the guessing game anymore.
New Colle players usually aren't too careful about little tricks like that.
Well, it's uncerstandable if someone just learning the Colle tries to play it against a K-side fianchetto, but anyone who takes the time to build a repertoire that implements the Colle should definitely know better.
Most serious Colle players will use the 150 or the Barry against ...g6, but I actually came up with a e3 system against ...g6 that will be in the next revision of Zuke 'Em.
This gets back to a very simple point about the Colle. People used to tell beginners "Hey, you can use the Colle against anything" but the problem is that after someone starts playing the Colle they don't make the effort to learn the anti-dotes to pet defenses and other setups. Just like any other opening, you have to weave the Colle into a repertoire. The Colle gets a bunch of bad press because many students don't make the transition, and they just keep playing the Colle against everything. It lowers the reputation for the opening in general.
steevmartuns wrote:
The Old Benoni may be an interesting try against the Colle System. If you know your opponent is a Colle-or-nothing player, then the normal Colle move order 1. d4 2. e3 3. Nf3 4. Bd3 scores REALLY BADLY in the database against the Old Benoni, 1.d4 c5.
After the moves 1. d4 c5 2. e3 Nf6 3. Nf3 d5 4. Bd3 Nc6 Black shouldn't have any problems because White hasn't given him any. However, against someone who does not so inflexibly apply the system, the Old Benoni is more risky to play as Black.
Steve, you might like to see what I have cooked up against the Benoni, it is one of the "free samples" I give out. Go to "www.zukertort.com" and click on "Excerpts." you'll see a link to a PDF download of my anti-Benoni.
pskogli wrote:
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/explorer
Here you can actually check all the openings, how well they perform.
I predict that Colle gives many drawn games.
According to that site, the Colle as one the highest win rates in all of chess, and one of the lowest draw frequencies.
philtheforce wrote:
Yeah, but now i am starting to play better players i am wondering whether the opening is going to help me if i play it properly?
I play Colle a LOT. It's my favorite opening for white. And I love the fact that it's a SYSTEM and not necessarily an OPENING. But I think it'll still work. You just have to watch out for the potential of the black night on b4. If you find yourself in some trouble early on, just transpose to a Queen's Gambit.
I've played the colle for about 2 years, and i've had some good results vs B players, and decent results vs A players.
Biggest plus is that it's solid and rather easy to learn (looking through some games and perhaps reading a book about it should give you good ideas on where your chances are). It guarantees decent development and some threats and tricks in the (early) middlegame.
Biggest minus is that you won't get any advantage vs good players and nothing more than several draws. Also the play get's boring after a while, it's not a very 'rich' system in my opinion, thats the main reason why i don't play it anymore.
Yes I have started to find it boring .... but in my last congress I got a win and a draw with it against stronger players .... but my problem is i am a very passive player and perhaps the Colle doesn't suit my style of play?
Then i guess you could try playing the QG which might suit your style more. I'm not an expert on it but it's very rich on ideas. Myself I realised when playing the colle that i'm good at tactics and therefor am now playing 1. e4.