...Nxc3 has been played by GMs in these positions. I don't think the "loss of tempo" is significant as White isn't going to do anything with it anyway.
5...e6 weakens the dark squares and shuts in Black's light-squared bishop. I don't think this move can be played.
5...Nb6 is normal.
...Nxc3 has been played by GMs in these positions. I don't think the "loss of tempo" is significant as White isn't going to do anything with it anyway.
5...e6 weakens the dark squares and shuts in Black's light-squared bishop. I don't think this move can be played.
5...Nb6 is normal.
I think you should play 5...c6! 6.nxd5 cxd5 and black has a strong center, while white's bishop hits granite. No need to give up your strong night or weaken dark squares. And if 6.e4, 6...Nxc3 makes sense here, since the pawn is on e4, and again white's bishop hits granite.
I feel sorry for moonie.Having to repeat the same thing multiple times due to the OP's Ignorance.
This discussion still going on? I still insist Nxc3 is far away from being a bad move. Even more. I say it's the best possible move in this position! 
by playing Nxc3 u give away your good Night for my passive Night i think i dont find a single good reason for Nxc3 here.
KingGS007, a knight on c3 is hardly a bad knight, in fact, it is one of the best squares for a knight, it's a developed piece that is controlling the centre and attacking one piece.
Someone said black loses a tempo playing Nxc3, the thing is, you don't lose a tempo when you are threatening to take a queen, not at all. Actually, you don't lose a tempo whenever you play a forcing move.
Komodo TCEC at 25 ply says Nxc3 is just as good as c6. Komodo TCEC is the best commercial engine there is currently.
Chessbase says it's as much played as Nb6.
As MSC157 states, only quantum computers can tell the best move in this position. Until then, we have three good options at least: c6, Nb6, Nxc3.
I would like to say the OP is not a troll at all, he is just trying to prove his point. I would also listen to MSC157 "Miha". I had the honour of playing him, and he is a fairly strong player and a nice guy. I would listen to his advice not only because he is a very strong amateur, but because I'm sure he means well. Just like me, trying to be helpful.
Would I play Nxc3? yes I would, because it's attacked twice and defended once if I remember well, and unless I am familiar with the position I wouldn't risk getting into a complicated position trying to defend my knight. In this case taking on c3 simplifies the position for black, and you know this move and the next one will be safe.
Maybe Nb6 could be played od c6 because e6 blocks your bishop on c8 in any case black should avoid trading this knight.
Guys please write "Knight" and not always "night" which is a completly different word. And to answer this question I can just say I played this line with both colours and its just a normal theoretical line! So what is this question about?!
I don't think anything is wrong with it.
If White tries a slow plan like Rb1, d3 and c4 whatever "time lost" by ...Nxc3 won't matter and Black can just play in the center. At any rate after ...Nxc3 development is still even and I'm not seeing what time is really lost anyway.
If White tries to put pawns in the center w/ d4 and e4 then Black simply plays against them.
I believe 6.bxc3 also gives white a weak pawn (the c-pawn). Once you push the central pawns the c-pawn won't be defendable by other pawns, becoming weak. You can find a somewhat similar position in the Grunfeld Defense, where black prefers to trade knights so that it (or black) doesn't fall into a defensive position.
I believe 6.bxc3 also gives white a weak pawn (the c-pawn). Once you push the central pawns the c-pawn won't be defendable by other pawns, becoming weak. You can find a somewhat similar position in the Grunfeld Defense, where black prefers to trade knights so that it (or black) doesn't fall into a defensive position.
REPLY: White wil eventually push his center with d4. Even then white's c3 pawn will be more strong than weak. White IS up two extra tempi. He has played g3 and Bg2.
Once, white pushes d4 he'll have a very strong center, a powerful bishop and two extra tempi, thus giving him the initiative. I think black should play c6! instead of Nxc3? It gives support to black's strong knight.
If e4, HERE Nxc3 makes sense because of white's bishop beig blocked. If white tries to open it up with e5, he weakens the dark squares and his white squared bishop hits black's c6 pawn, anyway.
REPLY: White wil eventually push his center with d4. Even then white's c3 pawn will be more strong than weak. White IS up two extra tempi. He has played g3 and Bg2.
Once, white pushes d4 he'll have a very strong center, a powerful bishop and two extra tempi, thus giving him the initiative. I think black should play c6! instead of Nxc3? It gives support to black's strong knight.
1. You claim that since black played Nxc3 and white played g3/Bg2 he won a tempo. This might be true in the mathematical sense but in chess sense it is totaly unclear if the bishop is better placed on g2 then on for example c4 or b5.
2. The only white plan for an advantage is to push d4/e4 anyways so i do not understand your last remark.
Regarding the similarities with the Grunfeld: 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 g6 3.d4 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.e4 Nxc3
Here is what IM Danny Rensch has to say on this position: "Black would rather trade knights than have to retreat to a passive position. Also by giving White a weak pawn on c3 Black insures that they will have counterplay." From Chess Mentor. Lesson on the Grunfeld. My feeling in this position is that black will never let the c pawn catch up with the other neighbouring pawns, thus remaining a backward pawn.
A weak, or backward pawn in this case, is a pawn that cannot be defended by other pawns, in some cases it cannot advance to catch up with other pawns without being captured, so it will remain a backward pawn. Regarding the weak pawn in our position, I think it is only potentially a weak pawn, because this weakness can be eliminated if you play d3 at some point in the game, which will support the c-pawn if needed.
I have reviewed the position, and in some games (such as one of the many Karpov vs Korchnoi of 1978) d3 was played (not immediately), and d4 was never played. In other cases c5 was played after d3, so that the c-pawn was defended by the pawn on d3.
According to GM Susan Polgar, as commented during the second game of the WCH match between Carlsen and Anand, computer engines put more emphasis on pawn structure than humans. Strong engines indeed treat the pawn on c3 as a possible weakness and will favour playing d3 over d4 in every position I have reviewed. Anyway, I'm not sure this is the reason why d3 is favoured.
REPLY: White wil eventually push his center with d4. Even then white's c3 pawn will be more strong than weak. White IS up two extra tempi. He has played g3 and Bg2.
Once, white pushes d4 he'll have a very strong center, a powerful bishop and two extra tempi, thus giving him the initiative. I think black should play c6! instead of Nxc3? It gives support to black's strong knight.
1. You claim that since black played Nxc3 and white played g3/Bg2 he won a tempo. This might be true in the mathematical sense but in chess sense it is totaly unclear if the bishop is better placed on g2 then on for example c4 or b5.
2. The only white plan for an advantage is to push d4/e4 anyways so i do not understand your last remark.
Don't forget that after 6.bxc3 is black's turn. White has spent its tempo defending itself and possibly weakening its pawn structure. No threat, no advance, just defending from black. The one who attacks has the initiative and is more likely to win. Just as IM Rensch said. GM Roman Dzindzichashvili in his video Member Analysis: Neutral Moves, stresses the importance of what I just said.
That was brilliant. I guess the case is closed now. IM nicely explained this.
We are very lucky to have you here on chess.com, pfren. Thanks for your post.
I never considered Rb1, and the line you posted is definitely not for amateurs, the continuation to 7.Rb1 is fantastic. That's the difference between professionals and aficionados in Chess, there are possibilities that just escape our minds.
Actually, you don't lose a tempo whenever you play a forcing move.
Wrong.
For instance, in the following position (which I made up, but it does not seem completely unreasonable), ...Bc5+ is losing a tempo since it "forces" White to play d4 which White wants to play anyways.
This is explained at greater lengths in Reti's "Scientific chess course" or whatever it is called - not sure it has ever been translated in English, it would be a shame if not.
Actually, you don't lose a tempo whenever you play a forcing move.
Wrong.
For instance, in the following position (which I made up, but it does not seem completely unreasonable), ...Bc5+ is losing a tempo since it "forces" White to play d4 which White wants to play anyways.
This is explained at greater lengths in Reti's "Scientific chess course" or whatever it is called - not sure it has ever been translated in English, it would be a shame if not.
Undeniably true. Good point.
Regarding the similarities with the Grunfeld: 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 g6 3.d4 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.e4 Nxc3
Here is what IM Danny Rensch has to say on this position: "Black would rather trade knights than have to retreat to a passive position. Also by giving White a weak pawn on c3 Black insures that they will have counterplay." From Chess Mentor. Lesson on the Grunfeld. My feeling in this position is that black will never let the c pawn catch up with the other neighbouring pawns, thus remaining a backward pawn.
You know the difference between the position in the Grünfield and this one? In the grünfield position white already pushed e4. This of course, makes a huge difference.
I agree with IM pfren. The problem with Nxc3 is it opens the b-file. So maybe Nb6 is the best move, thank you!
chessmasters2004, I know, I know, it's quite obvious. somehow, I forgot to mention it. Anway, you're right, it makes all the difference.
I do not really understand your point. There are several reasons why Nxc3 is not a bad move and I explained these reasons all in previous posts. I also explained that by moving his knight and then exchanging it is not bad in this position. Black might have lost a tempo but in this positions that is not a problem