Nimzowitsch Defense, what's best against 2.Nf3?

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yureesystem
chuddog wrote:
StupidGM wrote:
Comeaux wrote:

I wanted some opinions.  I took about a 2 year break from the Nimzowitsch to learn some other openings.  I want to play it again because I love the line 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 e5 3.d5 Nce7...

This is a 2300-level "trick" opening that is very difficult to refute, which is why many players like it.  After 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 e5 3.d5 Nce7 4 Nf3 Ng6 5 h4!, Black must play precisely, which he usually will since most of the moves are obvious and forced, but White's advantage requires a deep understanding both of the variations which result, and the positional underpinnings.  Once White masters this, however, it's like a rating-point ATM.  Black will lose to maybe one in ten players to them being booked up, and give the other nine heck, at least under 2400.

There's a reason this opening has never been played in a world title match.  Being able to beat weak players with it is certainly useful, if one is a weak player themselves and never aspires to top-level chess. 

 

 

As much as I hate to agree with anything StupidGM writes, he's actually right in this case (except for that little insult stuck in at the end, "if one is a weak player" etc.). Moreover, the line he gave is only one of multiple ways that white can get an advantage in this opening. This is exactly why I play it only sparingly and only against masters and below. It does two things: (1) create an unbalanced position where white can't dry out the game and go for a draw against the stronger player, and (2) hide my real opening repertoire from the IMs and GMs I may play in later rounds, if/when they stop by to look at my game.

However, if all one does is book up on inferior openings in order to refute them, and neglect all study of actual chess (you know, middlegame strategy, tactics, endgame technique), a.k.a. the method of "improvement" recommended by StupidGM, what will happen is you will get an opening advantage against a higher-rated player who plays e.g. 1...Nc6 - and then fail to convert it and be outplayed. I've done this (outplay, not be outplayed) a number of times.

 

 

 

FM Chuddog is correct! This is why it is very difficult to be master, other area in their game is weak.

Comeaux
StupidGM wrote:
Comeaux wrote:
gambitlover wrote:

 You are not playing against stockfish on this site. You are playing against humans. You dont have to play the best moves, you have to play the most embarassing ones. If you want to win, then give your opponent the opportunity to go wrong.

If they call it scrap , unsound or tricks, dont worry. I often won the game, but lost the after analysis. Does it matter ?  Look at some games of Tal, they were not correct, stockfish would have beaten him, but he became world champion with it.

If you and your opponent have the same talent, the guy with the most memory will usually win. Do you want to spend hours, days, years in learning by heart the perfect opening lines ? Oh no, not me !

My range here was about 1950 when I changed my repertoire from "sound" openings to Halloween Gambit, Englund Gambit and other crititized openings; my range increased with more than 400 points by that.

Not only here, also in OTB games, I defeated guys with more than 200 points above me. Before I was never been able to do so.

You make a good point, and I love gambits.  I've been playing more aggressively as white and throwing caution to the wind lately.  Here's the thing... I'm signing up for a USCF Membership today.  The Paul Morphy Open is in New Orleans this weekend.  If I enter and play people I've never met, I'd play the Colorado Gambit in a second.  But every week there's rated games and the same people always show up.  I can't play the Colorado Gambit week in and week out against the same guys. I need a second option. 

I've beaten GMs in seven moves with White in the Ray Gordon Gambit, but that won't help me get to 3000 Elo, other than what I learn from playing the gambit (I've mentioned that is valuable).

Trick trick trick....chess based on t ricks doesn't hold up well over time, especially at the top levels, where the same small group of players plays each other.

I don't mind the tricks, because as soon as I master one, my rating goes up courtesy of the points I get fed from the one-dimensional trickster who can't adapt.

BTW, I train 12-14 hours a day, six days a week. You?

I'm not trying to be a gm.  Congrats on your achievements and whatnot but chess does not come easily to me.  I'm not trying to create a repertoire that's going to get me to 3000.  I'm trying to pull an upset every now and then against people rated around 2000.  

I do spend an inordinate amount of time on chess though.  Probably as much as you.  My blitz rating has improved a solid 200+ points this past year.  It's still horribly low but I'll take what I can get.  I was the worst chess player ever when I started.

ThrillerFan

If memory serves me right, doesn't "Play 1...Nc6" recommend 2...Nf6?

 

I want to say it is similar to some line in the Alekhine with 2.Nc3 where black goes to e4 instead of d5?

 

But then again, what do I know?  I don't actually play this crap!  There are far, far, FAR better moves than 1...Nc6, like e5, e6, c5, and c6!

yureesystem

You can play any opening below master level, amateurs aren't that book up and when they get out of opening okay, they choke it by blundering, missing tactics or poor endgame skills.

Comeaux

screwing around with the database to see what a French without the c5 pawn break looks like.

Sarozen
I had a similar experience as gambitlover.

I changed my openings to lesser known obscure openings, including the Nimzowitsch defense and have since gone up in rating.

Additionally, I played in an OTB tournament a month ago. My second game I had the opportunity to play the Colorado gambit with 2. Nf3 F5. My opponent practically shat himself on move two. He had no idea what today and was nervous and fidgety the whole time. He was literally sweating and I had the psychological advantage from move 2. He also didn't have Stockfish with him and played 3. D3 and from there I was immediately equal or better as black.

Additionally, in a later game in which I lost to a 2100, we were talking after the game about how he almost walked into my Colorado gambit. He was thankful he didn't and played his Bird instead. As he put it: "I would have had no idea what to do with that."
Comeaux
Sarogar wrote:
I had a similar experience as gambitlover.

I changed my openings to lesser known obscure openings, including the Nimzowitsch defense and have since gone up in rating.

Additionally, I played in an OTB tournament a month ago. My second game I had the opportunity to play the Colorado gambit with 2. Nf3 F5. My opponent practically shat himself on move two. He had no idea what today and was nervous and fidgety the whole time. He was literally sweating and I had the psychological advantage from move 2. He also didn't have Stockfish with him and played 3. D3 and from there I was immediately equal or better as black.

Additionally, in a later game in which I lost to a 2100, we were talking after the game about how he almost walked into my Colorado gambit. He was thankful he didn't and played his Bird instead. As he put it: "I would have had no idea what to do with that."

That's why I'm still willing to play if I've never met the person I'm playing.  It's not something people come in prepared for.  Against d3, do you play e5 or fxe4?

Sarozen
Against 3. D3 I believe it's best to take on e4 and then play e5. In the Colorado If you have the opportunity to play E5 you do, and typically have an equal or better position.

With 1. E4 Nc6

You will get 2.D4 about 40% of the time, which the e5 Ne7 line is easy and get a a good position.

You get 2.Nf3 and accepted Colorado gambit with Bb5 variations about 30-35% of the time.

Declined Colorado with 3.e5 10% of the time which I have won all my games with since white typically falls into a common trap every time. It looks good for white and that he has black on the ropes, then he discovers he's on the ropes and resigns.

About the other 20% or so are random Nc3,D3 or others.
SmyslovFan

Poucin's early responses were excellent and more or less comprehensively answered the question. 

The one thing to point out is that 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 d5!? is interesting enough for a strong GM such as Etienne Bacrot to repeat it against GM opposition. 

Interestingly, his 2014 blitz win against Leko in the line can't be found at chessgames.com or chess365. It is available through Chessbase though. 

I'll let the intrepid chess researchers look the game up for themselves.

SmyslovFan

Here's another blitz game that Bacrot played as Black against a strong GM, and won, this time against GM Guseinov (rated 2613 at the time):

1. e4 Nc6 2. Nf3 d5 3. exd5 Qxd5 4. Nc3 Qa5 5. d4 Bg4 6. Bb5 O‑O‑O 7. Bxc6 bxc6 8. h3 Qh5 9. Qe2 Bxf3 10. gxf3 Kb7 11. Be3 e6 12. O‑O‑O Nf6 13. Rd3 Rb8 14. Rg1 h6 15. Bf4 Qf5 16. Be5 Bd6 17. Bxd6 cxd6 18. Rxg7 Nh5 19. Rg4 Nf4 20. Rxf4 Qxf4+ 21. Kb1 Rhg8 22. Rd1 Ka8 23. a3 Rg2 24. Ne4 Rgg8 25. Rd3 Rb6 26. Rd1 Rgb8 27. b3 Rg8 28. Ka2 Kb8 29. a4 Kc7 30. Nc3 Rg2 31. Rd2 Rg1 32. Qd3 Rg6 33. Rd1 Kd7 34. Ne4 Ke7 35. Qc3 Rg8 36. Qd3 Qf5 37. Qe3 Qxh3 38. Qc3 Qf5 39. Re1 a5 40. Qe3 h5 41. Kb2 Rbb8 42. Qc3 h4 43. Qxc6 Rbd8 44. Qc7+ Rd7 45. Qc6 h3 46. Rh1 Qxf3 47. Re1 h2 48. d5 h1=Q 49. dxe6 fxe6 50. Rxh1 Qxh1 51. Qc4 Qh8+ 52. Ka2 Rc8 53. Qd3 Qe5 54. f4 Qxf4 55. Nc3 Qf5 56. Qd2 Rdc7 

 

(For some reason, the copy and paste PGN file won't read properly here, but will read properly on another site. I guess it doesn't like the symbols for Q-side castling.)

 

 

 

chuddog

How about a Nimzo theme tournament? 3/2 blitz, play whatever line you want but start with 1.e4 Nc6. Double round robin, play whenever you and your opponent can find the time, record the result. For fun and training. Thoughts?

Dale

I would try 2...g5 intending 3.Nxg5 Nf6

SmyslovFan

Cool idea, Dale!

 

Btw, I'm forever mortified that the Colorado Opening isn't something invented by Brian Wall or John Watson or Alex Fishbein. Instead, it's a piece of trash that nobody in Colorado plays.

urgaarav

r

poucin
gambitlover a écrit :
SmyslovFan schreef:

Cool idea, Dale!

 

Btw, I'm forever mortified that the Colorado Opening isn't something invented by Brian Wall or John Watson or Alex Fishbein. Instead, it's a piece of trash that nobody in Colorado plays.

Wrong : the first known Colorado game was played in Colorado in 1978 and the first publiced analyse was written by Paul Szeligowski from Colorado in 1983



ICheckMyMate
Comeaux wrote:

I wanted some opinions.  I took about a 2 year break from the Nimzowitsch to learn some other openings.  I want to play it again because I love the line 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 e5 3.d5 Nce7...

The problem is I've never played e4 e5 games a day in my life.  I'd rather something people don't see every day, a position I know better than my opponent.  So after 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3, what would you do.

1.  There's a line where you play d6, Bg4 and then e6 that I'm pretty sure Tony Miles played.

2. There's d6 and a pirc transposition.  This is recommended in the book The Dark Knight System and I have the book, I just struggle learning from chess books.  Anyway, there's a funny line where white plays an early d5 and the knight goes back to g8.  I've done well in those lines.  The most critical appears to be white playing e5 before you get a chance to.  

3. The Colorado Gambit, 2.f5.  It's not entirely sound. I'm playing at the 1300 level and do ok with it, but I'd like something that could give me fighting chances against 1800-2000 players.

4. e6 and a transposition to a French with the c pawn blocked in.

5.Alehkine's Defense?  Wouldn't that be a normal Alehkine's after 2.Nf6?  

6.Scandinavian.  This is recommended in a chess.com video called "The Modern Nimzowitsch".  I tried it and felt uncomfortable with my queen on a5.  It felt dirty and wrong.  And I even lost my queen putting it there once.  

Anyway, those are all the options I could think of.  Right now, I'm playing 2.f5 for no real reason other than my opponents get themselves in trouble against it, but it's not that hard to find the most critical lines.  Bb5, Ne5 and black is not having any fun.  What would you play, other than e5.

 

 

Instead of playing the 4...Qa5 Scandinavian try out 4...Qd6. It is way more powerful. The only critical line is 5.Nb5 but if Black knows the line he will be fine. Actually in over a hundred of games I did never face 5.Nb5 (even 2000+ rated players missed it OTB). I droped 2.f5 because you can be lost in only 6 moves if white goes for Bb5 Ne5 d4. In the 2...d5 line white still has to prove any advantage.

 

 

 

 

 
Comeaux

I'd rather my queen on d6 than a5 anyday.  

I'm knee deep in 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 d5 right now.  I feel comfortable with the pirc setup but the Nc6 French lines look more promising at first glance and I'm already familiar with a lot of the possibilities.  I'm just starting on the Tarrasch, though so there could be something ugly still to pop up.  Interestingly, in the variation below, it turns out exactly like a regular French Tarrasch with Nf3 instead of Ne2.  Simon Williams recommended Be7 and g5 in that position, IIRC.  The exchange variation is pretty much the same, although I used to play c6 and Nd7, I don't think it's all that different.  The Winawer is very different but it looks quite solid, and there's plenty of information on it so it shouldn't be hard to prepare for.  Seems like this is easiest route and a pretty sound option.


edit:  Looking at the guimard Tarrasch, this game is pretty amazing.  Nakumara defended so well and then patiently repositioned his pieces. It doesn't look like the easiest position to play  



SmyslovFan
gambitlover wrote:
SmyslovFan schreef:

Cool idea, Dale!

 

Btw, I'm forever mortified that the Colorado Opening isn't something invented by Brian Wall or John Watson or Alex Fishbein. Instead, it's a piece of trash that nobody in Colorado plays.

Wrong : the first known Colorado game was played in Colorado in 1978 and the first publiced analyse was written by Paul Szeligowski from Colorado in 1983

Paul may have analysed it, but his beloved opening was the Polish as White or as Black. I remember an article in the Colorado Chess Informant on it, but that article trashed the opening. I don't recall offhand who wrote it tho. (Todd Bardwick comes to mind, but I could be wrong.)

 

Brian Wall is the state's foremost theoretician of junk/baroque openings. His analysis here of the Fraser variation of the Ponziani is well known. And he was the one who popularized the Fishing Pole, which he had even used against GMs in rated tnmt games. 

 

Brian has played every legal first move in rated play, and has won using each of those moves. He's invented the Brick Sicilian and other lines that would all be better representatives of our state than the current Colorado Opening.

We have others who create interesting openings too, such as cc master Jeff Baffo. And John Watson is a well known author of many great books on the opening. 

 

Colorado deserves better.

Sarozen

Iamcheckmate... does the 2.Nf3 d5 line end up being an improved Scandinavian for you? I always thought it ended up being an inferior Scandi line?

pfren

1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 now 2...d6 is somewhat passive, 2...d5 somewhat suspect, 2...Nf6 somewhat bad, 2...f5 somewhat ridiculous, but luckily enough we have left 2...e5(!) out...