Opening choices against much higher rated opponents

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Avatar of madhacker

I didn't say a strong player would fall for a simple trap. I said if the position becomes entremely complex it increases the chance of any player, strong player included, going wrong.

Of course, it's still much more likely that you will go wrong than your much stronger opponent. But I'd still rather give myself a very little chance against a GM/IM, than just let them outclass me at their leisure.

Avatar of stochasm
Bubatz wrote:

The advice to play sharp lines against stronger players never worked for me. On the contrary, I use sharp lines against weaker players, but fare much better against stronger players if I go for closed positions with slow positional buildup (which is not the same as passive play, mind you). Yes, of course really strong players would beat me regardless of style of play, but those "stronger" guys I used to play at clubs and tournaments back in the days were mainly better in tactics and visualisation. And we all know that one tactical mistake and you're done.  


I guess there are two camps in this crowd. The people that are trying to beat higher rated opponents at all costs for the rating points, and the crowd that is focusing on their chess improvement. The only reason these strong players got good at tactics and visualization (and became stronger) in the first place was by studying tactics and playing slow games in tactical positions against stronger players and getting destroyed.

Avatar of Dutchday

A few moves of theory is really not enough to make the opening count for anything. So by all means, play the opening you know well so you get into a position you're comfortable with. This can be a main line or a side line/gambit you have prepared. Experienced players would tell you an obscure line is not the way to go. This play is probably not optimal, so the better player can still make something of the position.

Whatever you do, don't play something you don't really know yourself. And preferably, don't get into a quiet game or an endgame where the experience of the opponent counts.

Avatar of Michael-G

First I want to say that I have not read what the others said.

The problem you have is absolutely natural for players at your skill level because most of them have studied openings superficially.

   You don't learn an opening by learning 8,9 or even 19 moves.You learn an opening by understanding it.And understanding an opening means , understanding the ideas ,and most of all, understanding the pawn structure and it's variations.That way you understand not only the opening but also the middlegame (and in some cases even the endgame) it produces.

   I have seen players(in my chess club) of your skill level having no problem getting a good opening position against higher rated and better prepared opponents without knowing almost any lines and I have seen others that memorised loads of lines and they lose 10 moves after their opponent gets out of the "books".

   You don't need special lines to play against higher rated opponents.On the contrary, it is absolutely necessary to play your opening  because that way you will learn it better.

   Don't be afraid of the "free grandmaster moves" your opponent may play.Chess at it's core is a simple game ruled by simple rules so there is an explanation to every grandmaster move.You will be surprised of how easy is to find grandmaster moves,of course not always  but isn't it a good start to be able to find and understand most of them?

   My advise is: don't try not to lose, try exactly the opposite.Try to lose, it's the only way that will help you understand and improve. Analyse your games try to understand your loses , try not to  repeat your mistakes  and you will soon be the higher rated opponent that the lower rated will wonder what to play in the opening.

p.s. I hope I didn't say exactly the same as the others.

Avatar of fanofjapan
well the comments were above it!
kborg wrote:

 

 

But the OP isn't studying these classical openings, he's just "winging it," inside them, and getting creamed by his higher ranked opponents.  That's why he started this thread.

And what's up with the immediate response above?

It doesn't make sense to just re-copy older text of the thread, without comment or context.  Duh?

 


Avatar of Bubatz
BLaCK_SyNeRgY wrote:
Bubatz wrote:

The advice to play sharp lines against stronger players never worked for me. On the contrary, I use sharp lines against weaker players, but fare much better against stronger players if I go for closed positions with slow positional buildup (which is not the same as passive play, mind you). Yes, of course really strong players would beat me regardless of style of play, but those "stronger" guys I used to play at clubs and tournaments back in the days were mainly better in tactics and visualisation. And we all know that one tactical mistake and you're done.  


I guess there are two camps in this crowd. The people that are trying to beat higher rated opponents at all costs for the rating points, and the crowd that is focusing on their chess improvement. The only reason these strong players got good at tactics and visualization (and became stronger) in the first place was by studying tactics and playing slow games in tactical positions against stronger players and getting destroyed.


Things are more grey in grey than that. I guess most people want to improve and still also want to win - at least in tournaments or club championships. Back in the 1970ies/80ies there were no rating points at club level so "rating anxiety" wasn't really a problem. Like everyone, I tried to improve in tactics and visualization by doing lots of puzzles. I still think this is the best way because a real game will give you about one or two decisive tactical position/5 hours while a puzzle book will swamp you. But when I played in a tournament or the club championship, I of course tried to win and the advice to seek sharp play against much stronger opposition simply wouldn't get the job done.

Avatar of stochasm
Bubatz wrote:
BLaCK_SyNeRgY wrote:
Bubatz wrote:

The advice to play sharp lines against stronger players never worked for me. On the contrary, I use sharp lines against weaker players, but fare much better against stronger players if I go for closed positions with slow positional buildup (which is not the same as passive play, mind you). Yes, of course really strong players would beat me regardless of style of play, but those "stronger" guys I used to play at clubs and tournaments back in the days were mainly better in tactics and visualisation. And we all know that one tactical mistake and you're done.  


I guess there are two camps in this crowd. The people that are trying to beat higher rated opponents at all costs for the rating points, and the crowd that is focusing on their chess improvement. The only reason these strong players got good at tactics and visualization (and became stronger) in the first place was by studying tactics and playing slow games in tactical positions against stronger players and getting destroyed.


Things are more grey in grey than that. I guess most people want to improve and still also want to win - at least in tournaments or club championships. Back in the 1970ies/80ies there were no rating points at club level so "rating anxiety" wasn't really a problem. Like everyone, I tried to improve in tactics and visualization by doing lots of puzzles. I still think this is the best way because a real game will give you about one or two decisive tactical position/5 hours while a puzzle book will swamp you. But when I played in a tournament or the club championship, I of course tried to win and the advice to seek sharp play against much stronger opposition simply wouldn't get the job done.


Yeah, Ive found so far the most helpful way to get better at visualization is by playing slow games, because you end up visualizing positions and calculating for a good hour or two per game, even if you never get to play any of your tricks because your opponent sees them, you still have to calculate them...

I think you want to play tactical openings, not too sharp, but not dry and positional ones either. Like, I wouldn't advise playing the Marshall Attack in the Ruy against a stronger rated player, thats just too sharp, but I wouldn't play the exchange french either... Variations somewhere in the middle are probably best for learning, and for practical results...

Avatar of fanofjapan

well the point  is.. if you dont studying openings and their lines, how are you really grasp the intricates, the plans the ideas and the flow of an opening?? well saying its about understanding and not learning the openings is non sense... you have to learn them thouroughly to understand them, its simply not enough to just know the concept and basic plans

Avatar of Coddiwompler
Andre_Harding wrote:
Estragon wrote:

Sorry, but most of this advice is useless at best, at worst counterproductive.

The idea you are going to get someone 400 + higher rated to fall for a simple trap in a tactical line is laughable.  Does it EVER happen?  Sure, but it also happens the stronger player blunders in a normal postion. 

True, the stronger player is going to beat you almost all the time in a quiet or even position.  He is also going to beat you in wild tactical melees.  He will beat you in the opening.  He will beat you in the middlegame.  He will beat you in the ending.

You see, 400+ stronger players are going to beat you almost every single game no matter what you do.  Accept it.  This is why we refer to them as "stronger" players.

Your best chance against such a player is to play your best game.  Whatever line you would try in the last round with prize money on the line against a player rated equal to you should be the same line you play against those 200 or 400 higher.  This way at least you might learn something about your play.  All you will learn from a trick opening is that trick openings don't work.


 +1

 

+1

Avatar of KariEgilsson
madhacker wrote:

Spot on about getting slowly outplayed in quiet positions. It's a common mistake to think that the less pieces on the board, the closer you are to a draw. Quite often the opposite is true.

Remember, 2000 vs 2500, the amateur has nothing to lose as he is expected to be crushed anyway, and all the pressure is on the GM. Play without fear and make him worry about you, not vice versa. Chess history is littered with giantkillings, just like any other sport. The ideal situation for the GM is that he has a quiet position where he can just sit back and wait for his weaker opponent to make a mistake.

Here's a famous upset where IM Jonathan Penrose throws the kitchen sink at World Champion Mikhail Tal, and it comes off: http://www.mark-weeks.com/aboutcom/pal4/zopening/blzope14.htm

It also depends on your strengths and weaknesses and those of your opponents. If you are good at positional play and your higher-rated opponent plays very aggressively, then maybe playing very sharp lines isn't the right idea.