Opening gurus - help me choose the best response to e4

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I_PLAYLIKE_CARUANA

See my advice is learn najdorf sicilian and go for the goat itself

The openings you should master is what people say it's good but very complex to master because that is another level fun and it gives you confidence 

I learned the grunfeld against d4 and najdorf along with sicilian Schevenigian against e4 

As early you will put yourself into fire the early you master it caution you may burn your hand sometime

Jenium
ashtondayrider wrote:
DubstepJunkie wrote:

Haha it's a bit funny when people ask for the best defence like it's some World Championship where their opponent is going to be booked to the teeth with novelties against every line.

Just play an opening that leads to positions you like and stick with it

 

I'm literally asking people to recommend openings based on the kind of positions I like/dislike. 

 

From my experience, not liking a position is just another way of saying "not understanding the position", at least at our level. So every major Black opening will do...

However, if you don't like sharp positions, the Sicilian might be not the best choice...

XequeYourself
I_PLAYLIKE_CARUANA wrote:

See my advice is learn najdorf sicilian and go for the goat itself

The openings you should master is what people say it's good but very complex to master because that is another level fun and it gives you confidence 

I learned the grunfeld against d4 and najdorf along with sicilian Schevenigian against e4 

As early you will put yourself into fire the early you master it caution you may burn your hand sometime

 

For me it's a balance between the questions of what am I working toward and how much time and resources can I commit to that goal?

I started playing chess at 37 and I have a 3yo son and a full time job...so I don't ever expect anything like gaining a title or 2000+ and if I invested all my study time on the najdorf I'd still be studying it in a decade once work and parenting are accounted for.

So while I agree with you in principle, I have to be realistic about how much time I resources I have to learn it. I'm also not studying the Nimzo Indian for the same reason, even though I'd love to!

XequeYourself
Jenium wrote:
ashtondayrider wrote:
DubstepJunkie wrote:

Haha it's a bit funny when people ask for the best defence like it's some World Championship where their opponent is going to be booked to the teeth with novelties against every line.

Just play an opening that leads to positions you like and stick with it

 

I'm literally asking people to recommend openings based on the kind of positions I like/dislike. 

 

From my experience, not liking a position is just another way of saying "not understanding the position", at least at our level. So every major Black opening will do...

However, if you don't like sharp positions, the Sicilian might be not the best choice...

 

I think I'd definitely rather favour positional over sharp play but I take your point about not understanding the position. I'm not sure I fully understand the position that comes up after 1. e4, never mind the rest of them...

ThrillerFan
ChesswithNickolay wrote:

I also favor positional over sharp play, but I do want also have chances as black so I play the French (positional) together with the Sicilian (sharp) which makes the French Sicilian.

 

 

 

Whoever decided to label every move in the database here was a blooming idiot and complete and utter moron!

There is NO SUCH THING as the "French Variation" of the "Sicilian Defense".  1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 is simply the Sicilian Defense.  Specific Variation is not determined.  3.b3 is one of many Anti-Nimzo possibilities and a fairly popular one because Black has committed to e6, making a move like ...e5 a waste of time.  3.d3 is the King's Indian Attack, far better than 2.d3 here because the KIA is only good when the Bishop is locked behind the pawn chain, and so 1.e4 e6 2.d3 or 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d3 are the only two good versions of the KIA.  Another is 3.Nc3, delaying d4 to avoid certain obscure lines.

After 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4, you have the Kan (4...a6), Taimanov (4...Nc6), Four Knights (4...Nf6 5.Nc3 Nc6) and Pin (4...Nf6 5.Nc3 Bb4?!) Variations.  It is NOT the French Variation.

 

There is one line that directly transposes to the French Defense, but then it's the French Defense, NOT the "French Variation of the Sicilian Defense", which is namely 1.e4 c5 2.c3 e6 3.d4 d5 4.e5 and you have the Advance Variation of the French Defense, NOT the "Sicilian Defense, French Variation".

 

There is no French Sicilian!  Russia is invading Ukraine.  Sicily is not invading France or vice versa!

ThrillerFan
ChesswithNickolay wrote:

Bro I just stick with the names if FIDE or whoever is in charge didn't give them any. How does this have to do with anything?

 

The fact that you make false statements.  You claim you play the French together with the Sicilian when you don't.  You play the Sicilian, period!  There is nothing "French" about 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6.

Get us French gurus out of your hot mess!  You play e6 and d5, come join us.  If not, don't include the French cults.  We are not in Sissy Defense territory by any stretch of the imagination.  c5 is a weak move until d5 is firmly under control or White commits to not attacking it by going with a lame move like Nd2.

SmallerCircles

Plenty of good advice in this thread for you to chew on already.

I would say that if you like the feel of Ruy Lopez positions and feel uncomfortable in Sicilian positions, it might be a good idea to prepare e4 e5 stuff and to play through some successful defenses against the Fried Liver Attack so that it doesn't get you next time. The Sicilian is a great opening, one of my favorites, and I recommend playing it, but if you're not liking it, you could lean into the types of positions you do like and learn to refute the tricks for them.

If you stick with the Sicilian, though, and learn to play it well, it will serve you well in the long run.

brasileirosim
ashtondayrider wrote:

Hi all,

I have a coach who I'll be going through this with as well, but I'm in interested in peoples thoughts on the below.

My favourite opening to play is the Ruy Lopez and I can often get quite good positions that I like from those games. Some of the best games I've played have been as black facing d4 (I find I'm generally quite good at facing the London and don't get the hate people have for people who play it). I don't play d4 games myself as white very often but I do like the slow, positional grind that often comes from a d4 game. 

I also like playing the Nimzo Larsen from time to time and find I can get generally good results from that as I've managed to get a good feel for the key ideas in the game and can use that to my advantage from time to time. 

My problem is with facing e4. I've long played the sicilian but as I'm learning more about chess and more crucially, learning more about what I'm weaker and stronger at, I'm starting to get the sense that the sicilian creates positions that don't play well for me or that I don't find naturally easy. I've recently been trying to learn the Dragon but played a couple of OTB games this weekend where I just found myself really disliking the position I ended up in (lost one and won one, but the win took it out of me).

When facing the sicilian I've become more comfortable with the Alapin, so I think there's something in this idea about the traditional sicilian lines just not being right for me.

I've played some games with the C-K and the French and generally do poorly with them, though that may be because I've not studied either in great depth so I would consider them both to be options.

Based on the limited info about the kind of games and openings I like here - what would you recommend? My next lesson is in a week and a half so I want to start looking at some ideas in advance to discuss with my coach. 

I don't play the Sicilian (a lot of theory) or ...e5 (I don't deal well with all the sidelines / gambits).

Perhaps the Scandinavian is a possibility. There is a great book in Chessable about the Scandinavian with ...Qa5. Well explained, it cuts a lot of theory if compared with the Sicilian. Several top players play it from time to time, like Magnus, not only in blitz but also  in very important classic games. I tried once the Scandi with ...Qd8, but I gave it up completely. Some players hate the Scandi because of the loss of a tempo, but the fact is that you are really telling which opening you will play at move one; if the opponent doesn't take the pawn, you have often a good game.

Otherwise, the French defense is okay. I like the book Master the French Defence in Chessable: the author is very responsive. 

Sarthakk106YT

I think Caro-Kann, Sicillian, King's Indian, Traxler Counterattack or Nimzo Indian are great options. But it really depends on your level. 

If you are a beginner I think the Caro might be the way to go. (or just play e5)

If you are intermediate I think King's Indian or Traxler Counterattack and Caro are great options.

If you are above that then play any from the list above.

It really depends on your playing style. If you are Aggressive probably Sicilian. If you are Defensive then maybe Caro or French. I personally like King's Indian because it is easy to play.

XequeYourself
SmallerCircles wrote:

Plenty of good advice in this thread for you to chew on already.

I would say that if you like the feel of Ruy Lopez positions and feel uncomfortable in Sicilian positions, it might be a good idea to prepare e4 e5 stuff and to play through some successful defenses against the Fried Liver Attack so that it doesn't get you next time. The Sicilian is a great opening, one of my favorites, and I recommend playing it, but if you're not liking it, you could lean into the types of positions you do like and learn to refute the tricks for them.

If you stick with the Sicilian, though, and learn to play it well, it will serve you well in the long run.

 

It was the fegatello that scared me off e5, in my first ever OTB tournament game. Haunting memory wink.png

But it's an interesting idea to just try and learn more e5. I mentioned to my coach that I like to play e4 e5 as white but avoid it as black and he didn't think it was necessary for me to learn the lines if I never plan to play it, but maybe I shouldn't rule it out...

XequeYourself
brasileirosim wrote:
ashtondayrider wrote:

Hi all,

I have a coach who I'll be going through this with as well, but I'm in interested in peoples thoughts on the below.

My favourite opening to play is the Ruy Lopez and I can often get quite good positions that I like from those games. Some of the best games I've played have been as black facing d4 (I find I'm generally quite good at facing the London and don't get the hate people have for people who play it). I don't play d4 games myself as white very often but I do like the slow, positional grind that often comes from a d4 game. 

I also like playing the Nimzo Larsen from time to time and find I can get generally good results from that as I've managed to get a good feel for the key ideas in the game and can use that to my advantage from time to time. 

My problem is with facing e4. I've long played the sicilian but as I'm learning more about chess and more crucially, learning more about what I'm weaker and stronger at, I'm starting to get the sense that the sicilian creates positions that don't play well for me or that I don't find naturally easy. I've recently been trying to learn the Dragon but played a couple of OTB games this weekend where I just found myself really disliking the position I ended up in (lost one and won one, but the win took it out of me).

When facing the sicilian I've become more comfortable with the Alapin, so I think there's something in this idea about the traditional sicilian lines just not being right for me.

I've played some games with the C-K and the French and generally do poorly with them, though that may be because I've not studied either in great depth so I would consider them both to be options.

Based on the limited info about the kind of games and openings I like here - what would you recommend? My next lesson is in a week and a half so I want to start looking at some ideas in advance to discuss with my coach. 

I don't play the Sicilian (a lot of theory) or ...e5 (I don't deal well with all the sidelines / gambits).

Perhaps the Scandinavian is a possibility. There is a great book in Chessable about the Scandinavian with ...Qa5. Well explained, it cuts a lot of theory if compared with the Sicilian. Several top players play it from time to time, like Magnus, not only in blitz but also  in very important classic games. I tried once the Scandi with ...Qd8, but I gave it up completely. Some players hate the Scandi because of the loss of a tempo, but the fact is that you are really telling which opening you will play at move one; if the opponent doesn't take the pawn, you have often a good game.

Otherwise, the French defense is okay. I like the book Master the French Defence in Chessable: the author is very responsive. 

 

Oi! We've swapped places...I moved from Europe to Brazil...

I'm considering the scandi now...I'd always written it off but have it on the shortlist of openings to learn. Thanks for the recommendations.

brasileirosim

I am from Brazil, but living in Switzerland since 1988.

XequeYourself
Sarthakk106 wrote:

I think Caro-Kann, Sicillian, King's Indian, Traxler Counterattack or Nimzo Indian are great options. But it really depends on your level. 

If you are a beginner I think the Caro might be the way to go. (or just play e5)

If you are intermediate I think King's Indian or Traxler Counterattack and Caro are great options.

If you are above that then play any from the list above.

It really depends on your playing style. If you are Aggressive probably Sicilian. If you are Defensive then maybe Caro or French. I personally like King's Indian because it is easy to play.

 

Not totally sure of my level. I'm playing at around 1100 FIDE in tournaments but my coach thinks I have the positional knowledge of a 1500 and just need to tighten up my game and remove blunders to get there... Maybe intermediate level in terms of openings to look at

I_PLAYLIKE_CARUANA
ashtondayrider wrote:
I_PLAYLIKE_CARUANA wrote:

See my advice is learn najdorf sicilian and go for the goat itself

The openings you should master is what people say it's good but very complex to master because that is another level fun and it gives you confidence 

I learned the grunfeld against d4 and najdorf along with sicilian Schevenigian against e4 

As early you will put yourself into fire the early you master it caution you may burn your hand sometime

 

For me it's a balance between the questions of what am I working toward and how much time and resources can I commit to that goal?

I started playing chess at 37 and I have a 3yo son and a full time job...so I don't ever expect anything like gaining a title or 2000+ and if I invested all my study time on the najdorf I'd still be studying it in a decade once work and parenting are accounted for.

So while I agree with you in principle, I have to be realistic about how much time I resources I have to learn it. I'm also not studying the Nimzo Indian for the same reason, even though I'd love to!

Oh I didn't knewed you are 37 then the best defence for you might be the petroff Or learn some gambit or play Evans gambit or giuco pianisimmo 

jmpchess12

From my what you're saying I would guess Caro-Kann might be your best bet. All openings have sharp and slow positional variations, but the Caro goes down the second path more often. 

The French is in the same vein, but is the more aggressive defense and in general has more sharp lines. 

Bettyuk

"Below 2000, your openings don't matter". If this was the case, we would be roughly equal in score against all openings... but when I look at my own explorer, I can see I am noticeably worse in closed French and closed Caro openings vs when I open them up with a different line. So they matter to me, and even though I fluctuate around 1900-2000 now, this has been the case for me ever since I was around 1500/1600. 

For the most part, you don't need to memorise deep theory. Often just enough to know you're going down a line that keeps the position open vs closed is sufficient, maybe 5-8 moves. Otherwise, keep it simple. Develop, Castle, be aware of tactics and weak pawn structures.

As for the recommendations - it depends on what you like. Open or closed positions.

For improving players below 1400, I'd recommend keeping it simple with e4/e5 tbh and try to keep the position open with quick development. I personally go for trick lines, like the Stafford Gambit, etc. Whilst it's dubious, it's still effective enough in blitz time controls - which is all I play (as I play for fun - I never play OTB), but even the mainline Petrov/Petroff (2...nf6) is a decent shout. It narrows down the tree of games white can play against you (eg. if you play 2. ..Nc6, you will face a lot of Spanish, Italian, Scotch, etc). Playing Nf6 instead means you have an immediate advantage of having experience playing the same opening over and over, and your opponent maybe plays against it 1 in 5.

For advanced players, the Sicilian seems to become more critical, but it's also harder to learn. (As so many options White can use against it). Don't fall into the mistake I made and insisted on playing the Sicilian from around 1000 just because its known to be a good opening.
I binned it at 1700, switched to e5, and rose to 2k within one year. Not because e5 is better, but it's because I intuitively understood the more classical e4-e5 open positions more easily - and that's what should really dictate your choice below master level imo. That is:- picking an opening that leads to comfortable positions for you, where your natural 'chess' intuition can take over, vs having to have an understanding of positional strategy, maneuvering or memorisation. However, make no mistake, at higher levels, working on having that understanding is what will give you that edge. For most of us casuals looking to play for fun, don't under estimate the power of keeping things simple though and letting your tactics/endgame knowledge take over instead. I'd much favor an improving player drilling those two areas over and over vs any specific opening any day of the week.

Daft21

@ashtondayrider

probably e5 and c5 are theoretically the best. Caro-Kann and French are your next best openings and should fit your positional style.

The French is the most narrow of them all. You can play the Rubinstein vs Tarrasch and Classical (Nc3) learn one of the several good lines vs the Advance and the Exchange. Exchange French is by far my best scoring opening it's about learning the position. You get the exchange all the time and thus should be mnore familiar with the positions than your opponents.

Christof Sielecki built a very narrow Caro-Kann repertoire with black in Keep it Simple for Black. The other part is about the QGD. Vs. e4 he goes for an 3. c5 in the advance and the Tartakower vs the two knights and the classical. I personally don't like the Tartakower. But if you like it you can build a very low theory repertoire around it.

sholom90

I can't really recommend for others, but if the OP, or anyone else, is interested in trying new things, here are a few reasons why I've played the French for the last couple of months:

  1. First off, coach Dan Heisman says that he recommends that all of his improving students spend at least six months playing the French against e4 and KID against d4 (but not necessarily at the same time!), because the pawns structures that arise from those games are similar to pawn structures that arise from other openings.  He says that of his students -- even the students that gave up the opening after six months and went to something else -- none have regretted doing so.
  2. One can get away with studying only three variations: Advance, Rubinstein (as that leaves you with the same position whether white plays 3 Nc3 or 3 Nd2 -- see the 13-1/2 minute video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqRtSRN6vJk), and Exchange.  (Further, Exchange doesn't have to be symmetrical/boring at all.  Mat Bobula has a great video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XET8PN04GKg) explaining how to get to a position where black castles queen-side -- quite the opposite of symmetrical.  Very unbalanced and dynamic).
  3. I practice openings by playing 5|5 blitz.  I get very similar games (first 8 moves or so) falling mostly into two categories (Advance and Rubinstein) playing French, and so that makes it much easier get the hang of it.  I've got to say -- that has helped me a lot!  Certainly, a good intro book will help you get some of the main ideas of each of the variations (although I haven't seen the Bobula idea in the Exchange in the French books I have) -- although I wonder, these days, whether simply videos will suffice.  (Certainly you want a book to build a repertoire, but that's for much more advanced players, and the OP wasn't asking for that.  But I digress...)

Finally -- I disagree with those who say openings don't matter for U1500, or U2000, or whatever.  Chess needs to be fun, and different openings have different flavors (open, closed, dynamic, sharp, positional, etc.).  While it is true that any sound opening is a good one to play, you'll be better in the long run if you play an opening you enjoy.

And another final comment: this post is not to urge anyone to play the French.  Each person needs to find what s/he's comfortable with (although Heisman does specifically recommend it for learning purposes).  This post is simply the reasons why *I* currently play the French.

ThrillerFan
sholom90 wrote:

I can't really recommend for others, but if the OP, or anyone else, is interested in trying new things, here are a few reasons why I've played the French for the last couple of months:

  1. First off, coach Dan Heisman says that he recommends that all of his improving students spend at least six months playing the French against e4 and KID against d4 (but not necessarily at the same time!), because the pawns structures that arise from those games are similar to pawn structures that arise from other openings.  He says that of his students -- even the students that gave up the opening after six months and went to something else -- none have regretted doing so.
  2. One can get away with studying only three variations: Advance, Rubinstein (as that leaves you with the same position whether white plays 3 Nc3 or 3 Nd2 -- see the 13-1/2 minute video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqRtSRN6vJk), and Exchange.  (Further, Exchange doesn't have to be symmetrical/boring at all.  Mat Bobula has a great video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XET8PN04GKg) explaining how to get to a position where black castles queen-side -- quite the opposite of symmetrical.  Very unbalanced and dynamic).
  3. I practice openings by playing 5|5 blitz.  I get very similar games (first 8 moves or so) falling mostly into two categories (Advance and Rubinstein) playing French, and so that makes it much easier get the hang of it.  I've got to say -- that has helped me a lot!  Certainly, a good intro book will help you get some of the main ideas of each of the variations (although I haven't seen the Bobula idea in the Exchange in the French books I have) -- although I wonder, these days, whether simply videos will suffice.  (Certainly you want a book to build a repertoire, but that's for much more advanced players, and the OP wasn't asking for that.  But I digress...)

Finally -- I disagree with those who say openings don't matter for U1500, or U2000, or whatever.  Chess needs to be fun, and different openings have different flavors (open, closed, dynamic, sharp, positional, etc.).  While it is true that any sound opening is a good one to play, you'll be better in the long run if you play an opening you enjoy.

And another final comment: this post is not to urge anyone to play the French.  Each person needs to find what s/he's comfortable with (although Heisman does specifically recommend it for learning purposes).  This post is simply the reasons why *I* currently play the French.

 

As a long time French player myself, those 3 lines in number 2 are insufficient.  You also need to know:

1) The King's Indian Attack (2.d3/3.Nd2)

2) Gambit lines (Wing, Reti, Winkelmann-Reimer, etc)

3) Chigorin (2.Qe2)

4) Two Knights (2.Nf3/3.Nc3)

 

Yes, his solution does avoid the Tarrasch, Classical, Winawer, etc, but it is not as simple as 3 lines.

Ilampozhil25

whoever wrote "me losing to the fried liver scared me from 1...e5" needs to understand that 3...Bc5 is a thing