Philidor defence - Help me learn

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skotheim2 wrote:

I didn't say that you were, but that you could if you wanted to so that I could know what I do wrong.

See now I learned that I am supposed to give pressure on the e-file when I do exd4. (Re8 and Nc5)

Also I learned the b6 Ba6 idea after Ne4, if I chose to do that

Oh man

Thats the spirit Skotheim2  3...exd4  Wooooo Hooooo

Take a journey into the Exchange Variation buddy.

You know you want too.

Check it out.

This was a game I played a few days ago.

Not of the highest quality but it was very nice.

Fell for the simple tactic.

Oh it was heart breaking.

Here is another game I played.

It is not the normal Exchange Variation line.

I think my opponent played a few strange moves.

However, It still looks like a nice game.

I also used the E file pressure which ended up causing my opponent to just give up the pawn.

yureesystem

petrosianpupil wrote:

Im interested in playing the queen exchange line of the philidor if black gives me the chance. All the games in this thread seem to suggest 6 Bc4 which i think is inferior to Nf3 as it is a move forcing line. Has anyone got much experience or views on this?

 

 

 

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong in playing 6.Bc4, it force black to play 6...Be6 and double e-pawns; white has the better chances to win not black. Black has zero chance for a win and best black can do is a draw, not very inspiring for black. This type of setup for black is call the lazy setup, I don't want to study and want answer to all white replies without any work. I see it my chess club opening system that require little work and hoping it will answer how to play the black side without any opening studying. It doesn't work and the op lack of understanding of Philidor is apparent, he did not realize that he can put pressure on e4-pawn, if he study Nimzovitch's games he would know that. Lack of study show in otb games, there no data games base, there is no blitzing out your moves to play on the clock, that can be a disaster. I saw a otb game with the op against his opponent and both are rated 1800 fide, the sloppiness in their play and no calculation at all, his opponent just sacrifice with no compensation and the op give back all the material and nearly lost; it was one the worst to display of player rated over 1800 fide, all blunders and the last to make blunder wins. Yep, otb game must have chess knowledge and you better calculate accurate, even lines that seem risky. OP has no confidence and he needs to ask can you analyze my game, just like asking for free information, I don't want to study opening but give me all the lines so I don't have to buy a chess book. Go get a opening and middlegame book, don't be lazy asking players to help you for free, if you lack the talent then pay for lessons.

adumbrate
Please help, where did I go wrong?
adumbrate

Playing this "terrible" line with black and winning, because he had to play f4 to get counterplay I think.



TwoMove

In the IM game your main problem was playing a much stronger player, and don't think your disadvantage was much more than normal black, until blundered f-pawn. 

You posted earlier in similar line nb6 followed by a d5. That didn't work because Nxe5 was more or less a free pawn. Ba2 is normal for white, typically black plays nf-d7 instead of d5.

BirdsDaWord

Yuree, I know you state that Black can only play for a draw in those positions...from the vibe I got from Bauer, he stated that that position was a very hard nut to crack.  I don't think that necessarily implies a draw, anymore than the Berlin is a guaranteed draw.  The structure might not be "perfect", but the amount of central control that Black has with those DI central pawns is interesting to work with.  

I would be more interested in a real discussion on the lines discussed earlier with Ng5 and Rxf7.  This is the SOLE reason I left the Philidor - it annoyed me to face it.  Anything else is essentially equal with winning chances for Black, IMO.

BirdsDaWord
skotheim2 wrote:

It might also break down the Stonewall!

 

Who said that Philidor isn't exciting?

The d6-e5 concept is often used to "break down" the Stonewall, but that doesn't imply that it is necessarily bad for the Stonewall player to have his wall broken down.  The game typically descends into tactical madness at those points.  I have tried some interesting gambit type play at times like that with e4!? and allowing a capture of either the f- or d- pawn...there is also (as computers are okay with) a double recapture on e5, with an isolated pawn on e3, with open lines for the bishops.  It is highly interesting!

yureesystem

             

BirdBrain wrote:

Yuree, I know you state that Black can only play for a draw in those positions...from the vibe I got from Bauer, he stated that that position was a very hard nut to crack.  I don't think that necessarily implies a draw, anymore than the Berlin is a guaranteed draw.  The structure might not be "perfect", but the amount of central control that Black has with those DI central pawns is interesting to work with.  

I would be more interested in a real discussion on the lines discussed earlier with Ng5 and Rxf7.  This is the SOLE reason I left the Philidor - it annoyed me to face it.  Anything else is essentially equal with winning chances for Black, IMO.   

 

 

 

 

 

I would agree that Philidor is sound but move-order is important, 3...e5 limits black chances and to allow the double e-pawn and the exchange queen, white is the one who has a chanes for a win not black. The double e-pawn is not a new concept, this can accord in the Ruy Lopez. To compare it to the Berlin is not really a good example, Berlin has a better chance for a win; and the Philidor endgame at best is a draw, as long white play solid, white is no danger in losing. My argument is one cannot learn opening through a video or a thread, a book is best because the author took the time to give example games and explain it clearly and annotate the games so a player can understand the defense better. 

BirdsDaWord

Here is what Wiki states (referencing Bauer) - 

Another try is 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e5 which transposes to the Hanham after 4.Nf3 Nbd7, but White can instead try to gain a small advantage with 4. dxe5 (Kaufman opines that 4.Nge2 is "also promising")4... dxe5 5. Qxd8+ Kxd8 6. Bc4.[8] After 4.dxe5, Bauer concludes that "White stands a trifle better" but that "provided he plays accurately, Black doesn't have much to fear following 6.Bc4, by choosing any of the three valid replies, 6...Ke8, 6...Bb4, or 6...Be6. Then 7.Bxe6 fxe6 his position remains a hard nut to crack."[10]


yureesystem

@ BirdBrain, that is my point, is if black needs a win and he playing slight low rated player, his chances to win is almost zero but in the Berlin black can fight for a win with black pieces.

BirdsDaWord
BirdsDaWord

These are the top two games in my database, both wins for Black.  After that, I see two White wins, and three draws...Here is a screenshot based on Black's ELO.

https://gyazo.com/98d4ff303e2bf79d4e6eeef25385f836

ACTUALLY, there is one game I found in there that was higher-rated, with a win for White.



adumbrate

But I like the Be6 line, which is not bad!

BirdsDaWord

skotheim, if you decide you wanna check out alternatives, there is also ...Ke8 and ...Bb4.

adumbrate

Another win against FM:



adumbrate

What should you do against Bg5 stuff, is h6 Re8 Bf8 an okay idea?

As I can not do the normal plan of taking on d4 and playing Nb6 and Nfd7-c5

A recent game where I met Bg5 and didn't quite know what to do



BirdsDaWord

Here is the list of games in my database, with percentages.

https://gyazo.com/31df2e0ef2cd12d4328d3fe280d86e2b

adumbrate

Ok, great thanks!

But what do you do against something like this when f4 comes, with maybe idea of f5, I am usually so scared of f5 I just take it.

BirdsDaWord

Something interesting is the early ...d6-d5 (pre-f4)

https://gyazo.com/26d052f22714652ada0c56abedaa97a5

White can also play f4 at move 5, with good results.

https://gyazo.com/a6f846d983a30df8ef73cb87e7c60d84

https://gyazo.com/69bee39abdb8b1c7d3975cad5a06d078

It seems that at this point, a strategy (and I think Bauer expands on this) is around holding the strongpoint on e5, to keep central control.

5. Ne2 actually doesn't have as good of results in my database, but nonetheless...

https://gyazo.com/2c6570029fed7d7be9b4d2e7e65441ac

Only one time has f4 been played at this time, and not even between masters.



BirdsDaWord

Sko, do yourself a huge favor.  Get that Bauer book.  Why listen to a 1500 player, when you can listen to a 2600 player?  ;)