Playing as black against Nf3, D4 without transposing to Slav defense. - Chess Forums - Page 2

rains19

Sep 13, 2019

0

#21

najdorf96 menulis:

Indeed. I particularly find it offensive (personally) whenever someone doesn't like DQP openings. I'm not going to be passive-aggressive here, rather be totally upfront with you young pups...it's an absolute must to ingrain Queen's Gambit theory, either with white or black into your overall opening repertoire. And it's not only COOL to answer 1. Nf3 with 1. ... Nf6, it's OP man. Central control much? Every basic opening principle in elementary text expounds on this even if you don't know much theory. Please. Dont get me started on why I think the Slav is not analogous to the the CK. Please. I'm an Caro Kann player myself, and I would never ever advocate someone else to play the Slav or Semi-Slav just because. If it works for other players, cool. But essentially in this context, you and your opponent (who plays the CK & Slav) imho are not that. Fault me for my sanctimonious attitude, but I dont care because I'm not the one asking for advice. If spongey's or Thriller's replies dont resonate with you, nothing will but just experience. Just play. Because playin's always the thing with me. Dropping dimes of knowledge is useless if you're just a nitpicky. I advocate for opening study first n foremost, but not outright ignorance of basic fundamentals of opening play in lieu and reluctance to expanding one's knowledge. Please. Peace.

You talk a lot, and I don't even understand with what you are even talking about

rains19

Sep 13, 2019

0

#22

ThrillerFan menulis:

rains19 wrote:

Hey, I've just joined a chess club a couple days ago. 1 of the player likes to play Nf3, I replied with D5 and the game transposing to a Slav Defence. I don't really like playing Slav and rarely play it, and my opponent seems good at Slav defense since when I play D4 he always plays Slav.

One of the game I played C6, then D5. I won the game but it seems that he is pretty good at Caro-Kann too.

Should I replied it with Nf6? since I like to play KID against D4, is there any risk if I play Nf6?

When deciding what to play against 1.c4 or 1.Nf3, you must account for what you play against 1.d4 or 1.e4 as it can transpose. For example, if you do not play the Sicilian, then 1.Nf3 c5 is a mistake because White can play 2.e4 and you are stuck in a Sicilian. If you are a Sicilian player, then 1...c5 is fine.

If you hate double queen pawn openings (d4 d5), then 1...d5 is a mistake against 1.Nf3, but if you like 1.d4 d5, then 1.Nf3 d5 is strong.

1.Nf3 is very transpositional, and this must be accounted for.

I use to play Sicilian, but I rarely play it anymore since I learned Caro-Kann, recently I tried the Grunfeld and have a successful score with it, I think I would start to play with it now.

JasM01 menulis:

Just Play The Dutch

Kingside or Queenside Castle, I usually Queenside in this imbalanced positions.

I never saw a queenside castle the dutch in a high-level game, but it is a very interesting opening to learn and play at club level. I think I will try to use it more.

So, if white plays Nf3, what should I reply to bait white to play D4? since NF6 is not an option because of black blocks the F pawn

Chicken_Monster

Sep 14, 2019

0

#23

rains19 wrote:

najdorf96 menulis:

Indeed. I particularly find it offensive (personally) whenever someone doesn't like DQP openings. I'm not going to be passive-aggressive here, rather be totally upfront with you young pups...it's an absolute must to ingrain Queen's Gambit theory, either with white or black into your overall opening repertoire. And it's not only COOL to answer 1. Nf3 with 1. ... Nf6, it's OP man. Central control much? Every basic opening principle in elementary text expounds on this even if you don't know much theory. Please. Dont get me started on why I think the Slav is not analogous to the the CK. Please. I'm an Caro Kann player myself, and I would never ever advocate someone else to play the Slav or Semi-Slav just because. If it works for other players, cool. But essentially in this context, you and your opponent (who plays the CK & Slav) imho are not that. Fault me for my sanctimonious attitude, but I dont care because I'm not the one asking for advice. If spongey's or Thriller's replies dont resonate with you, nothing will but just experience. Just play. Because playin's always the thing with me. Dropping dimes of knowledge is useless if you're just a nitpicky. I advocate for opening study first n foremost, but not outright ignorance of basic fundamentals of opening play in lieu and reluctance to expanding one's knowledge. Please. Peace.

You talk a lot, and I don't even understand with what you are even talking about

He doesn't know what he's talking about. I'm a n00b, but I'm pretty sure the Slav and CK are sister opening with the same or similar pawn structure. And there is nothing wrong with Slav or Semi-Slav as openings...they are well-respected and played by SUper GMs down to people like me.

kindaspongey

Sep 14, 2019

0

#24

"... If you choose the Pirc against 1 e4, it makes sense to consider the King's Indian against 1 d4. This is more flexible and will give you additional options later. … Likewise, the Caro-Kann and the Slav fit together, and then you can answer 1 c4 by 1...c6, without having to undertake any additional learning to cope with 2 e4. …" - GM John Nunn (1998)

kindaspongey

Sep 14, 2019

0

#25

Optimissed wrote:

... Nunn ... isn't saying that the CK and Slav are the same. ...

Never thought that he was.

kindaspongey

Sep 14, 2019

0

#26

Optimissed wrote:

... what was your point? …

One does sometimes see explanation of an advantage to playing Caro-Kann and Slav.

najdorf96

Sep 15, 2019

0

#27

rains19 wrote:

najdorf96 menulis:

Indeed. I particularly find it offensive (personally) whenever someone doesn't like DQP openings. I'm not going to be passive-aggressive here, rather be totally upfront with you young pups...it's an absolute must to ingrain Queen's Gambit theory, either with white or black into your overall opening repertoire. And it's not only COOL to answer 1. Nf3 with 1. ... Nf6, it's OP man. Central control much? Every basic opening principle in elementary text expounds on this even if you don't know much theory. Please. Dont get me started on why I think the Slav is not analogous to the the CK. Please. I'm an Caro Kann player myself, and I would never ever advocate someone else to play the Slav or Semi-Slav just because. If it works for other players, cool. But essentially in this context, you and your opponent (who plays the CK & Slav) imho are not that. Fault me for my sanctimonious attitude, but I dont care because I'm not the one asking for advice. If spongey's or Thriller's replies dont resonate with you, nothing will but just experience. Just play. Because playin's always the thing with me. Dropping dimes of knowledge is useless if you're just a nitpicky. I advocate for opening study first n foremost, but not outright ignorance of basic fundamentals of opening play in lieu and reluctance to expanding one's knowledge. Please. Peace.

You talk a lot, and I don't even understand with what you are even talking about

Indeed. First off. I'm sorry. I realize I came off "abit" abrasive and condescending. ✌🏽

najdorf96

Sep 15, 2019

0

#28

rains19 wrote:

kindaspongey menulis:

I think that ...Nf6 is very standard after 1 Nf3 or 1 Nf3 d5 2 d4.

I'm not really a fan of D4, D5

Indeed. As it is, this was my point of contention. Namely, learning Double Queen Pawn Openings (1. d4 d5) is something that is not only useful: it's essential, no matter how far along you go in playing Chess. Transpositions from 1. Nf3, 1. c4 are inextricably linked. I guess you will realize this later on. Again, I apologize to you if my lengthy post blurred over this fact. Anyways, it's always "ok" to answer 1. Nf3 with 1. ... d5; although it's "abit" committal. Like spongey said, general consensus would be to answer 1. Nf3 with the "Standard" 1. ... Nf6 (which I would do without a thought) is because it's also transpositional. Putting the onus back on white (soo what are you gonna do? Heh)😉

najdorf96

Sep 16, 2019

0

#29

Optimissed wrote:

No, he's right. Of course, they transpose from 1. ...c6. But, for instance, in that thread with supposedly the super-sharp CK line that people are banging on about, the structures and the moves are very similar to similar-looking lines in the Slav but if it was a Slav, black would be blown out of the water. In the CK with no e pawn for white, white just has a bit of an advantage, probably.

+1 . Indeed, my friend. In semi-open KP games, white's initiative, space looms dredging over us Caro Kann players during much of the game. I'm not "right" over the Sister Opening thing insomuch as my years of studying opening theory and the many differences you pointed out (whereas I just boliviated my experience). It has been many years, but the Concept of "Sister Openings" first came to me from reading one of Edmar Mednis' books (I forgot which one sorry) and at the time I was just getting into the CK as a secondary e4 defense (didn't realize Nunn would also speak of this as well~hmmn). I thought it was a "novel" idea even though I could never wrap my head around the fact that then, and now; yeah, c6 "triangle" pawn structure is primarily the driving motivation but to me at least, there are fundamental differences in playing open, semi-open KP games & strategies in closed, semi-closed QP play. I would think, in this context, a Sister Opening would be like the Nimzo Indian to the Queen's, the Sicilian Najdorf to the Sheveningen like that. Anyways, many thanks for the assist 🤙🏼

Chicken_Monster

Sep 16, 2019

0

#30

rains19 wrote:

kindaspongey menulis:

I think that ...Nf6 is very standard after 1 Nf3 or 1 Nf3 d5 2 d4.

I'm not really a fan of D4, D5

Why not? It's kind of classical and important to your overall chess education, is it not?

najdorf96

Sep 16, 2019

0

#31

Optimissed wrote:

An indication that 1. d4 is superior to 1. e4, maybe!

+1 . Indeed! I rather fancy that notion too 😏

WeylTransform

Sep 16, 2019

0

#32

najdorf96 wrote:

Optimissed wrote:

An indication that 1. d4 is superior to 1. e4, maybe!

+1 . Indeed! I rather fancy that notion too 😏

1. f3 is blatantly the superior one, and I have no apparent idea as to what you are ranting on about. By weakening your kingside and restricting an essential square for your knight, you are actually gaining a significant deal from this legendary, majestic opening by a psychological phenomenon one which is too long to explain in the narrow margin of the following thread (sounds a bit like Fermat). Anyway, it is strangely seldom employed, and it seems that such an opening is employed by the greatest of chess players, i.e. super grandmasters with ratings that have to expressed by a Graham's number of hyper operations.

WeylTransform

Sep 16, 2019

0

#33

PawnstormPossie wrote:

Optimissed wrote:

Yes, that's a word, you know. Oh, I didn't think you knew that but maybe you're questioning why. Poignant because of I'm living proof of that!

Thanks for the clarification.

JERK

Jerk is the third time derivative of position. INCONGRUITY.

notna66

Sep 16, 2019

0

#34

Hi

Chicken_Monster

Sep 16, 2019

0

#35

Was there an artist formerly known as Prince? Reading this is like watching the blind leading the naked and has lowered my IQ by 20 points. See the following link for ECO code: A48-49

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Indian_Defence

And the Slav and Caro-Kann are the sister openings. (Not the Slav and French. Pair the French with the QGD - esp Tarrasch and TMB variations.) It is due to pawn structure, not the move order or that they both can commence with c6.

zborg

Sep 16, 2019

0

#36

Play the Modern Defense against all white openings -- and save yourselves thousands of keystrokes.

VERY SIMPLE.

Chicken_Monster

Sep 16, 2019

0

#37

zborg wrote:

Play the Modern Defense against all white openings -- and save yourselves thousands of keystrokes.

VERY SIMPLE.

With that attitude, why not just forget about chess and play Call of Duty all night? Yes, we've all thought about it.

najdorf96

Sep 16, 2019

0

#38

ThrillerFan wrote:

Reuben_Sammitch wrote:

After 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.d4, you can enter A48 East Indian variation of the KID with 2...g6. From there the game can transpose into the mainline KID or continue in the East Indian after 3.Nc3 d5. etc.

There is no such thing as the "East Indian" Defense.

After 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Nc3, Black can play 3...d6 where 4.e4 is now the Pirc Defense, or if 3...d5, as indicated in your post, then 4.Bf4 is the Barry Attack (Not to be confused with the London System).

After 3.Nc3, there is no type of Indian system at all. All Indian Defenses require d4 and c4 to be played, such as the Kings Indian, Nimzo Indian, Queens Indian, Grunfeld, Old Indian, etc

Just because Black plays Nf6, g6, Bg7, and d6 does not constitute a Kings Indian Defense. Openings are classified based on the entire position, not one side's moves.

Those 4 moves by Black could land you in a Kings Indian Defense, Pirc, Torre Attack, London System, etc, but also, there is no "East Indian".

Indeed. This is a tangent, for sure but it's way past time to put this particular discussion to rest. No "East Indian"? +1 Reuben Sammitch. +1 spongey for pointing out there is differentiating circumstances for its usage despite ECO''s classification [A48-49] as such (despite Worldwide use of ECO's "colloquial" terminology being undoubtedly the Standard insofar in Chess Opening Classification/Category). I simply point out the early 2. Nf3 by white after 1. d4 Nf6; 2. ... g6 which arguably mark's the start of said, Eastern Indian line~which as a KID player is not...er... "normal" imho. For me, I would scrap playing the King's Indian ie 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. d4 and essay 2. ... d5 because it could go into a Reti, Catalan, KIA and I feel I could fight to equalize better. In that sense, I can relate to what Thriller is saying... however though~The Barry Attack is a chess opening for White that starts with the moves 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. Bf4 Bg7 5. e3 a6 Nb5 6. Be2. It is a Queen's Pawn Opening and is normally used against Black defenses such as the King's Indian Defense, the East Indian Defense and the Pirc Defense. Wikipedia

najdorf96

Sep 16, 2019

0

#39

ThrillerFan wrote:

Reuben_Sammitch wrote:

After 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.d4, you can enter A48 East Indian variation of the KID with 2...g6. From there the game can transpose into the mainline KID or continue in the East Indian after 3.Nc3 d5. etc.

There is no such thing as the "East Indian" Defense.

After 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Nc3, Black can play 3...d6 where 4.e4 is now the Pirc Defense, or if 3...d5, as indicated in your post, then 4.Bf4 is the Barry Attack (Not to be confused with the London System).

After 3.Nc3, there is no type of Indian system at all. All Indian Defenses require d4 and c4 to be played, such as the Kings Indian, Nimzo Indian, Queens Indian, Grunfeld, Old Indian, etc

Just because Black plays Nf6, g6, Bg7, and d6 does not constitute a Kings Indian Defense. Openings are classified based on the entire position, not one side's moves.

Those 4 moves by Black could land you in a Kings Indian Defense, Pirc, Torre Attack, London System, etc, but also, there is no "East Indian".

Indeed. The earliest example of this type of play occurred in Bernstein-Fischer (if course spongey could elaborate) with it's "East Indian" opening classification. A more recent example would be Loek van Wely-Fabiano Caruana 2015 Tata Steel where it was also classified as such (where the Barry Attack wasn't instituted but therein involved a delayed c4 by white. 0-1 btw)

najdorf96

Sep 16, 2019

0

#40

[edit] *Sidney Bernstein-Bobby Fischer Canadian Open 1956 0-1