Question about the italian game from black's perspective.

Bah... Black does ***NOT*** play to equalize after 7...Nxe4. He plays for an advantage.

Factly, even 7...Bxd2+ 8.Bxd2 Nxe4 is perfectly OK (approximately equal). It's not a big deal for Black to equalize against this meek variation, unless you believe Dzindzi's claims that this is as good for white as the Ruy.

Ok shepi play me a game, you can play Bxd2 and d5 and we'll see how close you ever get to equalizing. 60 minutes ok by you?

I will play

btw you have 2200+ rating shepi 1700 that is the same as saying black is winning when a top gm beats you with black

In order to prove that you have an advantage you should actually beat a stronger player not a weaker one. So it is kind of a lame argument.

And I play sicilian, not e5 . I'd be happy to play you sometime later in this line even though I don't think it would prove anything. I'm just saying that d5 is theoretically equal IMO.

That may be true but studying as far as d5 and stopping will get you crushed even by similar strength players who know the lines after that and ideas. There is only one equalizing idea for Black and you have to play the only move several times.

I don't get crushed because I play sicilian 

Actually, if you try the Sicilian against me, I guarantee your crushing. :)

Really? Which line do you play against the najdorf that is so great? I generally get quite playable positions out of the opening against players from 1000 to 2200 uscf in the open sicilians, and score extremely well against the closed or grand prix systems. I have more trouble with sidelines in 1. d4 lines usually.

Expertise just brags about his holy book of opening knowledge giving him the keys to beat major openings such as the sicilian and in a couple of other threads if i remember correctly, the french.

He has his opinions, and you have yours. Factly enough, opening freaks such as expertise probably overdose on theory lol, ive seen it too many times with chess players.

You probably overdose on theory too Random

Indeed, i was once an opening drug addict, but i hardly study any opening theory these days, gotta love puzzle compositions and studying tactics :)

I actually just started studying openings in any kind of depth at all after hitting 2000 a bit over a year ago, and have mostly been trying to get into medical school, so you definitely have the wrong idea about me, Randomemory.

I play Sicilian mainlines. And everyone who's played the Najdorf against me has lost quite quickly, but maybe you're stronger than the 2000-2200 players I'm used to playing who thought they knew what they were doing.

Against the French, I play the Tarrasch and score well against masters. I can't quite do that with the Sicilian yet, or at least I haven't had the chance, but I can't recall a game where I lost to a master who played the French.

@Expertise: The fact that you can crush someone rated 500 points lower than you in an opening says nothing about the opening. You could even open with f3 and win 29 out of 30 times. Does that prove 1. f3 gives white an advantage ?

Same goes the other way around if some 2700 GM plays the line with d5 against you and wins (probably) does that mean the variations is better for black ?

Like i said i will play you in the variation. I play e5 as black and even have played the mentioned line in some real games (against weaker players aiming for a draw because the strong players all choose d3 in the Italian). I would only play to see what plans stronger players use that weaker players do not an learn to understand the positions better

I do not consider a game of 2 2100 players very relevant for theory in this line as people like Karjakin, Kamsky, Smeets and other strong GM's already proved black is equal.

So, what would you do after 7...Bxd2+ 8.Nbxd2 d5 9.ed5 Nxd5 10.Qb3 against a lower rated player?

Would you play 10...Na5 and be ready for a handshake, or play 10...Nce7 and be ready to suffer for a while?

After 7...Nxe4 white has to play chess to earn his half point, while Black risks nothing.

pfren posted exactly what my thoughts were and fur that reason a 2700'would not play this line against me most likely.

@pfren: Yes i play Nce7 and to be honest i hardly suffer in that line. Probably because only lower rated opponents (lets say 1800-1900ish) play it against me (hoping for a draw no doubt) and they often make weak moves rather quickly after me refusting the Na5 draw. I do believe after Nce7 there are enough ways to outplay a weaker opponent. I never had a stronger player play the Italian with d4 against me but they will have to avoid the draw themselfs and therefor not choose the strongest Qb3 reply. I do however like the remaining structure from the lines you post so i am going to have a look at it and see if I want to use it next to a direct d5.

@Expertise: No you did not say that. You said you would crush someone playing d5 against you. This seems hardly likely as the best reply (Qb3) leads to a forced draw if black wants while other replies like for example castle give black good play.

He would have to find all of the right moves, and if I castle the position is equal so I should outplay someone 400 points lower rated than me without much trouble, it's not a dead draw or anything.

Well, against Expertise I would play Na5 because it proves that black is equal (pretty much just drawn) and he has like 500 rating points on me, but in a real tournament situation I would probably play Nce7 and try to play for a win (once black fixes his pieces I believe he should be better). 

Black's problem isn't "fixing his pieces", but rather managing white's initiative which is mild, but persistent.

You should have a look at some IQP literature. Black's problem is durable, which at the amateur level means that it lasts until white self-destroys his position.