Question about white opening advantage

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X_PLAYER_J_X
Optimissed wrote:

What I object to is the insistence that 3 d4 is bad for white. But it isn't any worse than 3 c3 or 3 c4. I'm saying that 5 ...e5 is weaker than its reputation, which is why I play Qc7. Sure, I sometimes play 5 ... e5 in blitz but I'm convinced that 6 Nb3 has been wrongly evaluated. We've had enough experience of engine analysis to know that we can't trust that when evaluating an opening, especially as it can be given code to automatically bias it against 3 d4. Do you understand that?

I do agree that using engines should not be the only source of learning. I believe they can sometime mis-evaluate openings. Which is why I took precautions. I used other resources along with my analysis.

Objectively speaking the engines found the positions mostly equal with some positions given a microscopic edge to black. However, the Human databases I used filled with 2200+ players and above gave huge evaluation readings to black. So in truth it wasn't the engines hating the position it was human title chess players getting better results with black in the positions.

ponz111
Optimissed wrote:

What I object to is the insistence that 3 d4 is bad for white. But it isn't any worse than 3 c3 or 3 c4. I'm saying that 5 ...e5 is weaker than its reputation, which is why I play Qc7. Sure, I sometimes play 5 ... e5 in blitz but I'm convinced that 6 Nb3 has been wrongly evaluated. We've had enough experience of engine analysis to know that we can't trust that when evaluating an opening, especially as it can be given code to automatically bias it against 3 d4. Do you understand that?

I think 3. c3 is the best move and better than 3. d4.

3.d4 is not a "bad" move as White maintains an advantage. However White gets a better advantage with 3. c3 for fairly obvious reasons.

Often engine analysis is correct, even in the early opening.

X_PLAYER_J_X
hayabusahayate16 wrote:

Optimissed wrote: However, the way it went down it seemed as if I was being lead on as if you was hiding some secret continuation which you had made up or something of that nature.>>Yes, I play1 e4 ..c52 Nf3 ..a63 d4 ..cd4 Nxd4 ..Nf65 Nc3 ..Qc7So far as I know, that is completely my own creation and also completely sound. I think it's stronger than 5 ...e5, which I don't like because it lacks flexibility. I've been running into this early ...Qc7 idea a lot but moreso in the Najdorf when I use a sozin attack after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cd 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bc4 e6 7.Bb3 Qc7 however i think its more useful in your line because it prevents the bishop from coming to c4. what is the most common 6th move you see from white? I think a problem with ...Qc7 is that it just isnt testing and allows white more flexibility as well which can be dangerous for you because here 6.Be2 6.f4 even 6.g4 all look like plausible moves and there are probably even more ideas. 5...e5 immediately strikes out for the center and limits whites flexibility and initiative and seems the main point of the move 2...a6

Optimissed is talking about a different line completely. One I did analysis on a couple of days ago with him. He objected to my analysis of course lol. He is talking about the O'Kelly Variation

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 a6

 

However, I do play the Fischer-Sozin Attack as white.

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cd 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bc4 e6

Have you ever tryed 7.0-0 by any chance?

ponz111

serving in tennis cannot really be compared with first move in chess.

Much more of an advantage to have serve in tennis. This can be seen by looking at percentages.

Are there any stats to show that as the ratings get higher in chess, there is a bigger advantage in having the first move?

Bonny-Rotten

XJX's post are of a much higher quality than Octopussed's.

When an individual has to stoop to backstabbing like that, you know he is just full of hot air.

Should have been muted ages ago. Having said that though, hairybush and Octopus could well get to be good mates.

Bonny-Rotten

www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BGAryS37oo

Bonny-Rotten

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eewmqr-nqnY

keju

petrip, any stats on what happens when top engines play one another? If engines are better than humans, then white advantage should be even more pronounced for top engines? But that seems weird.

ponz111
keju wrote:

petrip, any stats on what happens when top engines play one another? If engines are better than humans, then white advantage should be even more pronounced for top engines? But that seems weird.

Actually, I am guessing when top engines play each other, the White advantage is less.

I know at a higher level than when top engines play each other, there are very many draws.

Bonny-Rotten

I always find it funny when someone mentions whites opening advantage from the get go.

tomy_gun

If you imagine perfect chess, e4 is a perfect advantage against a perfect response, wining a perfect tempo against none of the oponent, but we are not lifeless engines and those are only training tools.

ponz111

I think at the very highest levels [higher than top engines against each other]  you will see something like 90% draws 6% wins for White

4 % wins for Black. [despite a couple of recent exhibitions]

cj86yeah
cj86yeah

whoops forgot the last quuen