Scandinavian 1)e4 d5 2)e5

Eric_Cantona

Instead of playing the usual 2)exd5, White tries e5. What, in your opinion, is the best reponse for Black? Is d4 then c5 ok?

 

 

DonnieDarko1980

As a Scandinavian player, I get this quite often and always play 2. ... c5. Depending on how White continues, I then either play e6 to transpose into a French, which is my second main answer to 1. e4, or Bf5 first to reach an improved French-like position with the bishop out.

I haven't tried 2. ... d4, but I'd guess it's not that great since it seems to weaken the center.

ozzie_c_cobblepot
The Caro-Kann player in me wants to play ...Bf5, but the really greedy Caro-Kann player in me wants to play ...Bg4 in one move after Nf3.
thelandlesslabourer

I have been playing Scandinavian for around 4 years in tournament levels. Against 2. e5, I play 2... Bf5 3. d4 e6 4. Nf3 c5 5. c3 transposing into French Defense with good Light Squared bishop for black.

Generally, 2. e5 is not played by anyone > 1600 FIDE rating in serious tournament play. 

DrSpudnik

2...c5

rocketbrainsurgeon

White gets an easy space advantage against the Scandinavian with exd5 - Nc3 - d4, so I don't know why you'd avoid it.  As a former scandi player, I can easily say e5 was welcome: you get a french defense with all the benefits and none of the drawbacks.

Eric_Cantona
rocketbrainsurgeon wrote:

White gets an easy space advantage against the Scandinavian with exd5 - Nc3 - d4, so I don't know why you'd avoid it.  As a former scandi player, I can easily say e5 was welcome: you get a french defense with all the benefits and none of the drawbacks.


LOL, im playing Black, not White ;) But anyway thanks for the comment.

AnthonyCG
pellik wrote:
FirebrandX wrote:
pellik wrote:

I don't understand you caro-kann types. Why would you want to give up your protection of e6 by putting the bishop outside the pawn chain? How does that help you challange the center?


The bishop locked inside the pawn chain is generally considered the weak piece. That's why they call it the 'bad bishop' in the French defense. Any chance you can get it outside the pawn chain without penalty is considered a failure by white.


I understand that's what they say about the french. I just don't believe them. That bishop accomplishes an awful lot from inside the pawn chain in the middle game. It's only if you move on to an endgame without giving yourself a way to free the bishop that it becomes a problem.


C'mon that thing spends most of it's days on d7 or it goes on some 20-move journey to h5 LOL.

AnthonyCG

Anyway I'm not really sure if 2.e5 is "bad." I mean theoretically it's supposed to equalize or whatever but that's assuming that Black knows how to play that French pawn structure. If Black can't play the normal French then he probably wouldn't notice the change in position if the bishop gets to come out.

A similar position comes in Alekhine's:

Same sort of position for White except it's more dangerous for him. White could get that similar pawn structure from playing the advance French and even the Caro-Kann (2.f4) too. So that's four openings where White could have good practice in this pawn structure and that's probably only because he chickened out of playing 2.f4 against the sicilian. Laughing
So I would look at some games and try to get the hang of this stuff. 2...c5 isn't going to play itself...
NimzoRoy

2...Bf5 soon followed by ...e6 with a "good" FD Bishop IMHO, believe it or not I typed this before checking out chess.com's Game Explorer 

Database: Master GamesMy Chess GamesOther Players Games      
movegameswhite wins / draw / black wins
2...c5 37
18.9% 35.1% 45.9%
2...e6 21
47.6% 19% 33.3%
2...Bf5 9
  22.2% 77.8%
2...c6 5
20% 40% 40%
2...d4 1  Sprotte Norbert - Albrecht Rainer (1987)
2...Nf6 1  Klepaczka, T. - Igambergenov, A. (2011
Eric_Cantona

LOL, if people want to play the Caro-Kann then let them play it! Perhaps you dont like because it dosent compliment your style of play but it does to others! :)

ozzie_c_cobblepot

I don't think that the game explorer stats are to be trusted, because the players on the white side are not randomly selected.

I have an incredibly good record against this variation of the Caro-Kann

1.e4 c6 2.Nf3 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.Ne5

But it doesn't mean that it's bad. It likely means that the players who play it against me are though.

ozzie_c_cobblepot
Note, for what it's worth, that the position for black after e4 e6 d4 d5 e5, the French Advance, is better for black than e4 c6 d4 d5 e5, the Caro-Kann Advance. Evidenced by the fact that the Caro Advance is extremely popular right now with top GMs, whereas the French Advance is not. The pertinent question for this thread is, in the French Advance, is 3...c5 stronger or is the impossible move 3...Bf5 stronger, if it were possible.
yourfutureboss

I'm pretty sure either c5 or Bf5 lead to a very nice positional setting for black.

I would prefer playing Bf5 though, but it could depend on personal style.

ozzie_c_cobblepot
Why does the Panov no longer sting? Why is the Classical nothing? And the Fantasy, well about the only thing GM Speelman said about it was that black is okay, as long as he doesn't try to refute it directly via the ...e5 line. So while I know that the advance is popular, is it because the others are equal or is it because the Advance is less trodden, and therefore more rich?
RoffleMyWafflez
ozzie_c_cobblepot wrote:
Why does the Panov no longer sting? Why is the Classical nothing? And the Fantasy, well about the only thing GM Speelman said about it was that black is okay, as long as he doesn't try to refute it directly via the ...e5 line. So while I know that the advance is popular, is it because the others are equal or is it because the Advance is less trodden, and therefore more rich?



He's full of crap.  The classical is fine for white.  I know little to nothing about the Panov and the Fantasy, but they both look like fun alternatives to the popular lines.

Michael-G

Everything is a matter of taste.Anyone that have studied and played French for many years knows that the "bad bishop" is actually a myth(Psakhis and Moskalenko also say that on their books).There is no "bad bishop" there are only bad moves that may create a bad position in which a superficial evaluation will make you believe that it's bad because the bishop is bad.The bishop on c8 and on d7 later does exactly what he must do, protects e6 until black is ready to play e5.A bad piece is bad only if the rest of the pieces are uncoordinated and bad positioned which is not the issue in French if you know what to do.I have played French defense for years , and I never lost because of the "bad bishop" , most of the times I lose because of the "good bishop".

   So the real question is what do you like.It's a fact that although the pawn structure is the same Caro Kan advance and French advance are very different.So it's only a matter of what positions you like.It's impossible to answer the "what is better" question.

RoffleMyWafflez
Michael-G wrote:

So it's only a matter of what positions you like.It's impossible to answer the "what is better" question.


For now.  But chess WILL be solved eventually, just as checkers is now.

waffllemaster

I play the center counter online and always go 2...Bf5.  Some white players don't know what they're getting into and very quickly their d4 pawn (when they push it there) becomes a positional embarrassment for them.

Those that know how to play it can play it, but black has a very comfortable game with no problems.

ozzie_c_cobblepot
waffllemaster wrote:

I play the center counter online and always go 2...Bf5.  Some white players don't know what they're getting into and very quickly their d4 pawn (when they push it there) becomes a positional embarrassment for them.

Those that know how to play it can play it, but black has a very comfortable game with no problems.


Do you mean 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Bf5?

What are the types of things which white typically does against which black has "no problems"? Because this doesn't look good for black at all, to me.

What do you think would be the critical line for white to play?

If I totally misunderstood your comment, my apologies in advance! :-)